This blog post came out of my quest for finding a medical explanation/term for my own pain caused by dietary oxalates and a desire to gain a better understanding for my clients who experience similar pain. It’s been on my writing list for some time and I’ve been gathering articles and research but the current coronavirus pandemic and recommendations for high vitamin C intake had me concerned enough to blog about it and ask for feedback from my community.
This is the blog, Coronavirus and vitamin C for immune support: new pain or more severe pain due to oxalate issues?, where I pose the question about recent increased intake of vitamin C or the addition of large doses for immune support and increased pain: joint pain, eye pain, foot pain, vulvodynia, bladder issues, insomnia, gut pain, kidney pain, changes in thyroid health/labs, bone pain etc? The feedback on this blog and on Facebook has been huge and confirms the connection. Thank you if you’ve already contributed to the discussion!
Today I’ll share an overview of oxalates, my pain issues with dietary oxalates, a deeper dive into the condition called oxalate crystal disease (with some of my insights and questions), and the autism and atherosclerosis research. It’s by no means a comprehensive blog on all things oxalates but rather a way to try and connect some dots and pose some questions for going deeper.
The next blog will address my vitamin C/oxalate/pain story and the research on vitamin C, oxalates and pain, together with questions.
Oxalates defined and food sources
Before we review oxalate crystal disease, let’s define calcium oxalates. Julie Matthews, my good friend and colleague and an oxalate expert shares this in her blog, Oxalates: Their Influence on Chronic Disease
Oxalates present in our body as sharp crystals or crystalline structures with jagged edges that cause pain, irritation, and distress. They can bind with certain minerals; particularly calcium and magnesium, as well as iron and copper
You’ll find many different lists of low, medium and high oxalate foods. When I started eating low oxalate I found Susan Owen’s site simple and very helpful. I then joined the Trying Low Oxalates Facebook group for support and feedback.
In summary, these are the common medium-oxalate and high-oxalate foods that many folks have problems with: nuts, nut-butters and nut-flour (something to watch when eating Paleo or GAPS), wheat, chocolate, kiwi fruit (very high – see the raphides image below), star fruit (also very high), beets, potatoes, legumes, berries, spinach and soy.
You can see why these needle shaped calcium oxalate crystals found in kiwi fruit could inflict pain. This is just one example – there are many different shapes of calcium oxalate crystals.
My oxalate story: severe foot pain and eye pain
I personally had severe dietary oxalate issues in 2012 which manifested as excruciating foot pain. It was a combination of hot-burning-coals-pain and shards-of-glass-pain. It was just after my book, The Antianxiety Solution (my Amazon link), came out. Due to my book tours and events, I would be on my feet all day presenting, often for 3 full consecutive days, so I figured that must be the reason. When I travelled, I took a blender and made smoothies with berries, ate plenty of healthy nuts as my snacks and took kale chips with me to make sure I was getting my greens. Kiwi fruit was a favorite of mine!
I was eating a high oxalate diet and had no idea until I heard Julie present at an Integrative Medicine for Mental Health Conference on dietary oxalates and autism. A light-bulb went off and then I worked with her to learn about oxalates and figure out if it was in fact because of oxalates and sure enough, as soon as I removed high and medium oxalate foods the pain resolved. Note: the advice is NOT to remove all high and medium oxalate foods at once because dumping can occur. I was fortunate that this didn’t happen with me, possibly because of the vitamin B6 I was already taking as part of the pyroluria protocol.
When I eat a low oxalate diet I do really well. However, more recently dietary oxalates have been causing me eye pain when I have a treat like eggplant or carob. It starts out as a kind of scratchy discomfort and mild pain and then gets worse and worse. I also have a goopy kind of discharge from the inner part of my eye and burning/redness crystal-like teariness on the outer parts of my eyes. I recently had one very severe incident where the eye pain in my left eye was agonizing for about 2 hours. I was beside myself and tried GABA, DPA and tryptophan for an attempt at pain relief – with no success. When I took 500mg of vitamin B6 the pain eased immediately.
The theory is that oxalates cause issues where you have a weakness. I injured my left eye walking into a low tree-branch while rock-climbing 15 years ago, so I suspect this is why my left eye is more severely affected.
Oxalate crystal disease
The condition “oxalate crystal disease” is the closest explanation I’ve found that explains the pain I’ve experienced and makes the most sense, other than the fact that all the studies mention kidney disease and yet I don’t have kidney disease and have never had kidney stones. I’ve also never had a problem with my estimated Glomerular Filtration Rate (eGFR). In case eGFR is new to you it measures how well your kidneys filter the wastes from your blood and is the best overall measure of kidney function/damage.
This paper, Update on oxalate crystal disease, summarizes it:
Oxalate arthropathy is a rare cause of arthritis characterized by deposition of calcium oxalate crystals within synovial fluid. This condition typically occurs in patients with underlying primary or secondary hyperoxaluria. Primary hyperoxaluria constitutes a group of genetic disorders resulting in endogenous overproduction of oxalate, whereas secondary hyperoxaluria results from gastrointestinal disorders associated with fat malabsorption and increased absorption of dietary oxalate. In both conditions, oxalate crystals can deposit in the kidney leading to renal failure. Since oxalate is primarily renally eliminated, it accumulates throughout the body in renal failure, a state termed oxalosis. Affected organs can include bones, joints, heart, eyes, and skin. Since patients can present with renal failure and oxalosis before the underlying diagnosis of hyperoxaluria has been made, it is important to consider hyperoxaluria in patients who present with unexplained soft tissue crystal deposition. The best treatment of oxalosis is prevention. If patients present with advanced disease, treatment of oxalate arthritis consists of symptom management and control of the underlying disease process.
Let me break this down because I’ve had to look up terminology and read and re-read papers in order to get a better understanding of things:
#1 Oxalate arthropathy is a rare cause of arthritis characterized by deposition of calcium oxalate crystals within synovial fluid.
Oxalate arthropathy is a disease of the joints caused by oxalates depositing in the synovial fluid of the joints. The paper states it is a rare cause of arthritis, but I suspect it is much more common given what we’re seeing clinically.
Also, because all the research connects oxalate crystal disease with kidney disease, it may be overlooked when there is no kidney disease (more on that below).
Synovial fluid is the fluid between the joints that acts as a lubricant and nutrient source.
#2 This condition typically occurs in patients with underlying primary or secondary hyperoxaluria.
Hyperoxaluria occurs when you have “too much oxalate in your urine.”
#3 Primary hyperoxaluria constitutes a group of genetic disorders resulting in endogenous overproduction of oxalate and… secondary hyperoxaluria results from gastrointestinal disorders associated with fat malabsorption and increased absorption of dietary oxalate.
Primary hyperoxaluria is genetic and results in endogenous or internal overproduction of oxalate, causing too much oxalate in the urine.
The secondary hyperoxaluria description mentions “gastrointestinal disorders associated with fat malabsorption and increased absorption of dietary oxalate.” There are a number of other factors which I’ll address in a future blog.
According to this paper and others, secondary hyperoxaluria also results in too much oxalate in the urine.
#4 In both conditions, oxalate crystals can deposit in the kidney leading to renal failure. Since oxalate is primarily renally eliminated, it accumulates throughout the body in renal failure, a state termed oxalosis.
Affected organs can include bones, joints, heart, eyes, and skin.
Mayo clinic states oxalosis occurs if your kidneys fail. “Because your body can no longer eliminate the extra oxalate, it starts accumulating — first in your blood, then in your eyes, bones, skin, muscles, blood vessels, heart and other organs.”
My comment is that in some instances, oxalates accumulate in various parts of the body without kidney failure. I share more about this aspect and what we see clinically below, plus an autism and atherosclerosis study.
This paper, Oxalate crystal deposition disease, also mentions the following: “osteopathy, acute and chronic arthropathy with chondrocalcinosis, synovial calcification, and miliary skin calcium oxalate deposits and vascular calcifications that affect mainly the hands and feet.” The paper is focused on primary hyperoxaluria (and does also discuss the kidney involvement) but I’m including it because of the conditions listed. You may have received one of these diagnoses and not linked it back to dietary oxalates and/or vitamin C intake possibly playing a role.
The authors do report “systemic life-threatening cardiovascular, neurologic, and hematologic manifestations”, saying they are rare.
Calcium oxalates: anxiety, sleep, headaches, fatigue and other symptoms
Calcium oxalate crystals can also be found in the thyroid, and ear, leading to hearing loss under some circumstances.
Julie Matthews, in her blog, Oxalates: Their Influence on Chronic Disease, also shares that
Clinical studies and anecdotal experience indicate that oxidative stress, mitochondrial disruption and damage, and nutrient depletions, trigger widely varied symptoms including fatigue and inflammatory cascades, joint pain or pain anywhere in the body. Chronic low energy is very common because of a reduction in ATP in the mitochondria. Oxalates could be a hidden source of headaches, urinary pain, genital irritation, joint, muscle, intestinal or eye pain.
Other common oxalate-caused symptoms may include mood conditions, anxiety, sleep problems, weakness, or burning feet. Indicators can be digestive, respiratory, or even bedwetting for children.
What the researchers are saying – always kidney disease
I’ve reached out to a number of researchers, practitioners and labs and they all state that oxalate crystal disease only happens with kidney disease/kidney stones. This is what one researcher shared with me: “Plasma oxalate concentrations only elevate enough to cause systemic disease when there is significant kidney disease (typically GFR <20-30). I have never seen a significantly elevated plasma oxalate without chronic kidney disease.”
Could this be the case because they are kidney specialists and therefore only seeing patients who already have kidney disease?
The good news is that a number of them are intrigued and interested in learning more.
Oxalate crystals in autism and atherosclerosis without kidney issues
However, based on my own experience and according to many in this community and other communities like the Trying Low Oxalates Facebook group, pain issues related to dietary oxalate intake may occur without kidney issues/kidney stones, and often does.
These papers offer some support for what I suspect we are seeing clinically – systemic oxalate deposits can occur deposits without kidney stones or renal failure:
Children with ASD [autism spectrum disorder] demonstrated 3-fold greater plasma oxalate levels … and 2.5-fold greater urinary oxalate concentrations. Despite significant hyperoxaluria no evidence of kidney stone disease…was observed
calcium oxalate crystals were observed within atherosclerotic plaques in the coronary arteries. Similar deposits were seen in the thyroid gland and other organs but not in the kidneys. None of the patients had chronic renal failure…. We suggest the phrase “atherosclerotic oxalosis” to describe this finding.
These are the disconnects I’m seeing in the research and questions I have:
- Oxalate crystal disease is reported to be rare and it only happens with kidney disease/kidney stones – could it be more common than reported? As Julie states: “New science and clinical experience reveal concerns about oxalates that far exceed traditional kidney stone pathology.”
- Should we be calling it hyperoxaluria. “too much oxalate in your urine” if the kidney is not involved? Or do we need to expand the definition of hyperoxaluria to include too much oxalate in other tissues outside the kidney and urine?
- Could oxalate crystal disease with no kidney disease be a new syndrome that has yet to be widely and clearly identified in the research?
I mean no disrespect to the study authors and researchers by sharing my insights and questions here and in the section above. I appreciate the work they do and the opportunity to learn from them.
Searching through the literature on this has been extremely challenging because studies always refer to the kidney. It may well be that there is a perfectly logical explanation for much of this and someone has already gone through the research and has answers to all my questions. I am very willing to be enlightened so please do share if you’ve come across a good explanation.
Either way, please share your insights based on what I’ve shared in this blog and in relation to your experiences with pain caused by dietary oxalates and/or pain caused by vitamin C intake. I will be sharing this blog and the comments with the researchers and practitioners who are open to all this.
Read all posts in this series:
- Coronavirus and vitamin C for immune support: new pain or more severe pain due to oxalate issues? (part 1)
- Oxalate crystal disease, dietary oxalates and pain: the research & questions (part 2)
- Vitamin C causes oxalate formation resulting in pain, anxiety, and insomnia (when there is a defect in ascorbic acid or oxalate metabolism)? (part 3)
- Willow’s survival story: Easter Lilies cause acute renal failure in cats and Peace Lilies cause oxalate issues (part 4)
- Waking in the night due to environmental toxins: impacts on the liver, gallbladder and fat digestion (making oxalate issues worse) (part 5)
- Increased kidney stones in postmenopausal women with lower estradiol levels. What about increased dietary oxalate issues too?
- Vulvodynia: oxalates, GABA, tryptophan and physical therapy
Thank you Trudy gor pursuing this topic. I had very high intake of Vit C and D during covid was doing smoothies with rasberries and spinach, daily, nuts and dark chocolate and I also love kiwi. My arthritis went to the excruciating level in three injury sites, back, hip, and shoulder and even an old carpel tunnel injury. I had no idea such pain existed. Saw your article about Vit C and I was taking huge doses during covid. I since joined the ocalate facebook group and getting better. I also have the same symptoms with my eyes as you do. I will have to get some B-6 see if that helps. God bless you for all your research anf what you do!
Carol
Thanks for sharing and so pleased you’ve made this connection and are doing better! The Trying Low Oxalates FB group is wonderful!
From what I’m seeing in the research vitamin B6 works well for a subset of those with oxalate issues and it may be gene related (I have one of the AGXT genes). I will be sharing more causes and solutions in follow-up blogs
Sorry, missing the link between Vitamin C and oxalates. How about taking other forms of vitamin C than calcium ascorbate? How about reducing calcium intake (I’ve seen doctors who say with normal dietary intake, it is just about impossible to have too little calcium in modern life)? I say this because the crystal is built on calcium – as are blood plaques.
I looked at dietary sources of B6, most of them were on my list of high oxalate foods…
I use vit c made from tapioca which I read was low in oxalates but can not verify that
I have had 3 bouts of calcium oxalate kidney stones, then learned to hydrate better and avoid high oxalate foods like black teas, spinach, kale, etc. But I have also had three episodes of BPPV (benign paroxysmal positional vertigo at other times that appeared uncorrelated. But I got to thinking about being dehydrated and the stones in the inner ear — what are they made of? They can be oxalate stones!
Please check this out some more and let people know about this connection as well, if it is real and I believe it is.
I am a researcher/clinician with two PhDs and love empirical evidence and logical, simple explanations. I am very interested in nutrition for mental health conditions and have studied such for about 20 years. Love to get to know you better.
Bruce
Thanks for sharing and pleased to have a researcher/clinician in my community. The link I share about hearing loss does mention calcium oxalate. Dr. Raponi mentions post-traumatic forms of BPPV and the “release of otoliths (calcium oxalate crystals contained in the endolymphs of the inner ear)” after whiplash. https://www.otorino-vertigini.it/en-gb/dizziness/bppv
Do let us know what else you find out about BPPV and if you feel your BPPV episodes may be connected to oxalate intake or dehydration or one of the other reasons (like fat malabsorption, calcium intake etc).
I’ve had two episodes of very severe dizziness many years ago before I had oxalate issues. It was never diagnosed as BPPV.
I do know someone whose hearing loss comes and goes. I suspect dietary oxalates may be a factor because it got worse after she upped her vitamin C for coronavirus. Her foot pain also got worse and was eased with epsom salts initially and then she stopped vitamin C supps.
If I went totally carnivore, would that eliminate all oxalates intake? Plants are POISONOUS!!!
I had many bouts of renal stones before taking B-6 and magnesium supplements every day. Some of those stones were the cause of ultra-severe pain, and one had to be broken up via lithotripsy. Since adding the supplements, I have not seen the return of the stones, which when tested identify as calcium oxalate. I haven’t changed my diet since taking the supplements and continue to eat a pretty good array of higher oxalate foods. Most other ailments have come and gone. But most have now gone. I did have some ongoing dizzy spells for a while, but this proved NOT to be the inner ear stones I’d suspected.
Interesting that pure lemon juice dissolves kidney stones yet it is high in vitamin C. I have had several bouts of kidney stones but got almost immediate relief with lemon juice with olive oil every morning for a few days. Chanca peidre is also wonderful for kidney stones.
Hi Daniel,
Hope you get to see this. I recently had a lot of joint pain and went to see a lymphatic drainage specialist. She told me she was TOTALLY carnivore (except, with a lot of pushing, 2 cups of coffee in the morning – with cream, not milk), had been for 18 months and at her last test had NO inflammation in her body. No inflammation, no pain. She studied keto (no vegetables from under the ground – too high in sugar) and says she knew someone who had been totally carnivore for 10 years with no adverse effects. She also talked a lot about eating spinach being akin to eating ground glass. No soy so no plant estrogens (I get so upset when people put baby boys on soy formula – no wonder we have falling fertility rates!!)
She eats only grass-fed, organic meat, a few eggs, sometimes a bit of cheese and the odd tin of tuna, says yoghurt is allowable but not to her taste (obviously not fruit flavored – she says only children should eat fruit, something about producing too much energy – sugar?) As she’s like me and doesn’t get hungry when she’s busy, she eats only once a day which makes a full-meat diet more affordable – she’s not eating it 3x/day.
I thought of your comment immediately and wondered how to find it again, suddenly this turns up in my inbox… She was VERY insistent that the way to health is to become a pure carnivore (just after I bought those veggie pastas…) Also quite insistent that she is much better trained than most people (quite insulting to my teachers but they’ll never hear about it). I figure more meat, more chance to get the amino acids we need.
Take care, hope 2021 is better for all of us!
How much b6 and magnesium do you take, my daughter has kidney stones that always have to be surgically removed.
Mason, may I ask how much B6 and magnesium you take and do you have to take them at the same time you eat the higher oxalate foods? I have a high metabolism and if I eliminate potatoes I lose weight and I’m trying to gain and to substitute rice is a problem because it’s acidic and goes against my osteoporosis diet of eating a high percent of alkaline foods and low acidic. Thanks, Diane
Bruce I think we are missing the forest because the trees.
Have tried to contact people to help us get the supplement from India manufactured here. There are too many symptoms and I know that there is no way anyone can get enough nutrients on this kind of diet.
I did think through my go to protocol yesterday and came up with a much more proactive supplement plan. I feel we may need to go the skin route on some supplements and by pass the gut.
And I am beginning to think that the stress from pain and trying to live a somewhat normal life leads to vagus nerve damage which leads to more Dx.
Doctors need to use “Herbal Antiobiotics” read the 2nd edition. Killing the microbiome should be a huge “No”. I now realize when the oxalate issue started, had a horrible poison ivy attach, so my arm was so infected and inflammed of course I was put on abx, plus predazone , which I turned out to be allergic to , what deal.
This is something that I am willing to fight for, as the “Floxed’ Cipro group went to Congress. Can you imagine a child having issues that we deal with?
Enough is enough.
Cheryl
Thanks so much for bringing out the possible connection to otoliths in the ear being related to calcium oxalate. In addition to many of the symptoms previously mentioned by Trudy, for the last couple of months I have been having spells of vertigo, thankfully only while lying in bed, either turning over or just turning my head. I had already connected these spells to otoliths, and what you say about their possibly being calcium oxalate makes a lot of sense.
I have had BPPV twice. First time several years ago – went away in 2 months. Second time in 2022 and it continued for over 6 months. I was trying flotation therapy in March 2023 (this consists in highly concentrated Epsom salt baths to the tune of 600 kgs Epsom salt to a shallow and not very large paddling pool). After my first flotation session I had the worst episode of dizziness and fatigue I had ever experienced, to the point that I could not walk in a straight line. But I decided to give flotation a second go, and at the end of that second session when I walked out of the pool I had ZERO vertigo. It totally disappeared just like that, and so far, four months later, it has not come back. Hope Coincidence? Correlation dies not necessarily mean causation, BUT that I should have such pronounced effects on soaking in highly concentrated magnesium salts makes me wonder if otholiths were somehow affected by the absorbtion of magnesium. Of course, since in flotation the head is also partially submerged and maybe the bobbing motion on the water might have relocated the otholiths so that might be another possible explanation. I have tested raised urine oxalates and via very low carb diet I have ingested excessive oxalates before I had even heard of them.
Tina
Wonderful results for your benign paroxysmal positional vertigo (BPPV). I’d suspect both magnesium and the flotation/bobbing
Are women more susceptible to oxalate problems than men? What other complications can occur with elevated oxalates? Neuropathy, gut pain issues, etc? thanks
Daniel
I don’t know yet if women are more susceptible than men. It does seem there may be a prostate connection – Prostatic Stones: Evidence of a Specific Chemistry Related to Infection and Presence of Bacterial Imprints https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3521648/
I’ll be listing all the health issues in a future blog. There are many!
What is the recipe for Lemmon juice and olive oil for oxalate relief?
I squeezed a full organic lemon and added equal amount of olive oil as a shooter first thing every morning on an empty stomach…..takes a little getting used to, but within a few days, amazing pain relief and I maintain a few times a month.
Daniel, you might like to try GAPS – Gut and Physical Symptoms or Gut and Psychological Symptoms – diet. Totally carnivorous! Plants are poisonous because they don’t like to be eaten – similarly, the gazelle runs away from the lion. Lots of people believe small amounts of these poisons are good for us, I prefer the GAPS diet as I don’t get pain from meat that I get from plants (sugar causes a lot of pain and guess what, it comes from a plant!)
You’re absolutely correct! Plants are poisonous, oxalates, lectins, etc etc. Do you have a special protocol or website for guidance for a carnivore diet, because I don’t know how to eat correctly on a carnivore diet. This information seems to be censored by the food industry. Thanks!
I don’t have a website as such, I just recall certain pieces of an interview between Dr Mercola and a Dr Natasha – don’t recall her surname – when GAPS was Physiological Symptoms but she mentioned she was thinking about another book with Psychological Symptoms because the gut and the way we think are so interrelated. I just searched for GAPS diet and it appears there were things on it like leafy greens – this is NOT what I recall from that interview 10 or so years ago. I know she mentioned kefir (made on milk but the kefir eats the milk sugars) and also going to your butcher for a pork belly and slow-cooking it – 150degC I think, or even 120 – that’s about 300degF I think – for about 12 hours. Things like naturally -made salamis, not the chemical things you buy in supermarkets, maybe from an old-fashioned Continental butcher if you can find one. I remember her comment and tone about the stuff we’re given that “doesn’t deserve” (or possibly denigrates) “the noble name of Food.” Her contention was that meat built up the body, vegetables were for purification – maybe your body removing chemicals with the toxins in plant material? But thinking about it, if you live in Eastern Russia, how much vegetable material is there available, especially all long, cold winter long? Catch a reindeer, eat all of it. Plants? Bark-only trees and dead grass under feet of snow. Maybe some vegetables fermented since summer. Meat works for these people! Just like fruit works for Polynesians who live under fruit trees.
Clover
Yes Dr Natasha Campbell-McBride and her GAPS work is wonderful but definately includes greens and other veggies (fermented and fresh) and broths.
Dr Natasha Campbell-McBride – off the Mercola website 2011
I have had definite problems with high oxalate foods for most of my adulthood. My kidneys would hurt, or I would get the vulvodemia thing, but I never had actual kidney stones.
I am 71 and am a registered dietitian and worked with CF patients my entire career. I know you know about low oxalobacter bacteria in the gut. CF patients are prone to kidney stones because they have dysbiosis from antibiotics and pancreatic insufficiency and have lost the oxalobacter bacteria. I remember one research paper on that many years ago.
I have taken antibiotics throughout my life starting in early childhood for swimmer’s ear, and then as a teenager for acne, and then as an adult for UTI’s or lung issues. I now have SIBO and I am sure I have always not been able to handle a certain level of oxalates. but my ability to handle it depends on stress, good diet, calcium intake, fluid intake, and oxalate foods as to when I may reach a threshold. The idea of threshold is important, which is why it isn’t recognized by conventional medicine. Also it may just cause low level inflammation so it isn’t on the radar.
Now I work with autistic kids and they have obvious dysbiosis and avoid fruits and vegetables…why? oxalates might certainly be part of it if they don’t have the bacteria to deal with it.
Thanks for discussing this,
Sarah
Thanks for sharing your story and experience with oxalates and Oxalobacter formigines. I’m with you on the dysbiosis and antibiotics, stress, diet, fluid and calcium intake and threshold.
Can you explain what you mean by this? “The idea of threshold is important, which is why it isn’t recognized by conventional medicine” and how we can work to get this recognized?
I don’t know much about CF but pancreatic insufficiency makes sense given the role of lipase in fat digestion and how fat malabsorption impacts oxalate metabolism. Is this the research paper you refer to? Cystic fibrosis and calcium oxalate nephrolithiasis https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2589049/ They also mention “disruption of entero-hepatic circulation of bile salts” with relation to fat malabsorption in CF. I’m curious if you saw signs of oxalate crystal disease and no kidney stones with the CF patients you worked with?
And yes oxalate issues are common in autism so the high and medium oxalate fruits and veggies may need to be avoided or limited. As you know salicylates in fruits and veggies may also be an issue.
Thank you Trudy,
Your blog makes me not feel so alone and hurting.
Of late I have hip pain along with non UTI pain. It is always me trying to eat more healthy, as I also have histamine intolerance. Trying to be somewhat normal some days is hard. My back garden is filled with 20 red raspberry and 6 golden raspberry bushes. And all of the healthy greens are filled with murdering oxalate crystals. Of course my moms rhubarb is growing in the front garden. You could not pay me 5000 dollars to eat piece of rhubarb pie.
When I read your Kale and nut diet my brain screamed, PAIN! The dose load can be tricky, as food combos and time between meals or bedtime are so important.
Now for a very strange question, with all of the kidney tie ins and MD’s beliefs and questions, could there be a tie in with men and prostrate issues?
Question, if one used Cal Citrate, how much Mag and what forms work best?
We do Mag Glycinate or Mag orotate.
And do you have a link as to the B6 dose and timing? And does it give relief within 10 minutes?
We buy from PureBulk .com as I like pure and not fillers or binders.
Wish someone would get to the why ,and what we need to do to repopulate the gut with what ever use to be there to eat these nasties or break them down.
I wonder how many sufferers are out there all alone and hurting. I know that I had to learn about it on my own, and sometimes you hurt so bad want to die.
Chery
Anyone want to design a tee shirt, I think we need to make more aware of this horrible disease disorder, monster.
Cheryl
Cheryl
So glad to hear my blog makes you not feel so alone and hurting. Love the tshirt idea!
Gosh …. berries, greens and rhubarb are such bad news when it comes to oxalates. Keep in mind that Dino kale is lower oxalate than say curly kale. And yes the total daily load of oxalates is important.
It seems there may be a prostate connection – Prostatic Stones: Evidence of a Specific Chemistry Related to Infection and Presence of Bacterial Imprints https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3521648/
I personally use Calcium citrate and I suspect the B6 worked so quickly in this one eye pain instance and to prevent dumping issues with my feet issues because I have one of the AGXT genes. I’m still learning about this aspect but so far I’m reading the vitamin B6 is not helpful for everyone.
Simple question?
Why are we not protesting the lack of this supplement?
I will start spreading the word and the cry for us to get it here in the US/ I am not walking to DC and sleeping on the Capital steps, but I will not give up.
Is it the FDA or who allows drugs in to the US. Is it available in Canada.
Now for strange question …..someone put out a book called….” Just eat Dirt or Eat Dirt” has anyone tried to put clean dirt in capsules and seen a difference?
I did read research about 3 years ago that had studied depression and working with dirt, there is a biome species in the soil that helps with depression.
Our ASD son has horrible issues with mold. We have found that if he uses a personal face steamer with Tea Tree oil it clears the brain fog in record time. He will use it 3 times a day. He also carries a small inhaler with tea tree oil when out. He always comes in and take a shower right away.
Gluten also pushes Candida, and us a product from Dr David Jockers for Candida, it really helps. We cant cut out all CHO so we use a supplement.
We will try some of the supplements you mentioned but we get so tired of supplements. I tell others we have our own private apothecary.
Thanks for your kind note, I read 2500 comments on a vaginous site one time, and I will not share what I learned from one woman UTI’s and prostrate issues, but leave it that women get infections from their husbands and it took one smart out of the box thinking Urologists’ to treat the husband and the wife had no more UTI’s for over a year.
We simply have to problem solve and think out side of the box.
We can do this ladies, we have the power the will and the desire to be pain free. This is a crisis and we have no idea how many suffer or are told it is all in their heads.
If we can get this probie into Canada we can get it to us.
I am not a law breaker, I want a pain breaker. If my grandmother could bear 12 children by herself and live in a Soddy, I can help all of you.
Can we have a summit and meet some place in the mid west and cry and cheer and give Trudy a “paper Crown”, ?
This is my first hope..
I may contact the guy at Microbiome lab and see if he will work on this. I think he is one that thinks out side of the box.
It is a professional sin not to help ASD kids.
My last share is this, crisis, pain and stress damage the vagus nerve, so I believe that most of us have vagus nerve damage.
Learned some amazing stuff on the “Trauma Convention”, too much to learn and digest to incorporate.
Best all and together we will solve this and celebrate healing.
I will not accept the pain the lack of joy in living and the worry of eating something healthy and the resulting pain.
My anger right now is on high, to think there is a supplement that could work for some of us is insane.
H…..Healing
O…….Optimism
P……..Perseverance
E…………Enthusiasm
for the WIN…
Cheryl
Upon the discovery that my stones were composed of of cal. oxalate, my urologist suggested more water intake and additional citrate..lemon juice oranges, etc. At the time, that surprised me as I thought those things were more of a cause than a cure. But for many years now, lemon juice, mandarins, oranges have been part of a daily die t for me, as well as lots of KALE. But I’ve always disliked kale except for Dino kale, so that’s the only type eaten. Surprised about your comment that it’s not a high oxalate item..but good! Now …my main problem is with the LISTS of high oxalate foods. While most share certain items like rhubarb and poppy seeds, there are wide discrepancies otherwise, and this is a source of confusion. I avoid the commonly held worst offenders, but I ‘m sure that some other high ox items are on my plate daily. Perhaps keeping to a wide variety of things but not a WHOLE LOT of any one thing helps to mitigate problems, as I am stone free for over a decade now.
Does it have to be calcium citrate, I use an algae calcium for my osteoporosis, would that work taken with an oxalate food? Also what does of calcium and B6 ?
Diane
The citrate form of calcium and magnesium work best.
I had really bad histamine intolerance and quercetin gave me immediate relief. Then I found a lady who practices biomagnetism ( magnetic pair therapy…not just magnet therapy). She said the underlying cause was epstein barr virus and she cleared it from my system with in a few visits….safe, easy, affordable and non invasive.
how do they do magnetic pair therapy?
I am very interested in what you are researching, Trudy. Though I have had 2 kidney stones, a recent test showed I have normal kidney function. There were no stones available to test, so I don’t know whether they were oxalate stones or not. My father had to be operated on for a kidney stone in the 1950s, but, since he later developed gout, his stones were probably caused by uric acid.
I have been suffering for 3 years from strange sensations of tightness and spasms of the muscles in the front part of my feet, making movement of my feet and toes difficult. I would not call it pain like you had. It developed gradually, first in my left foot, then in my right foot, too. I previously read your previous blog on B6 sensitivity and thought that might be the cause, stopping all B6, though the amount taken was about 40 mg. daily. I do not know whether that was the cause or not, but now I am almost paranoid about avoiding B6. I don’t think 2 diagnoses of peripheral neuropathy were correct, as I have no burning or tingling in my feet or hands. There is also no joint pain. A functional doctor thought it might be caused by low folate, but, when methylfolate didn’t cause any improvement, now she suggests it’s from low iron.
I personally think it is a circulatory problem and especially took notice at the phrase “vascular calcifications that affect mainly the hands and feet.” I also noted the effects on thyroid, as I am being treated for Hashimoto’s, with my biggest problem being high reverse T3. I am interested that it also mentions “mitochondrial disruption,” as I suffer extreme fatigue and chronic low energy. Testing shows I have 2 copies of the A1298C defect. I suspect this might keep me from clearing from my body whatever is causing the otproblem, whether B6, oxalates, or something else.
I really appreciate your tireless efforts to discover the causes if debilitating conditions and fir making your findings and thoughts available to us in your blog. Thanks so much.
Have you researched neuromas in your Feet?
I had terrible mortons neuroma which got better with daily morning use of serrapeptase on an empty stomach. If I stopped the serrapeptase, the pain would return within days. Then I started taking iodine for something else and the mortons neuroma completely vanished! SO there must be a thyroid connection….so bizarre. Doctors will never figure this stuff out so thank you Trudy for inspiring us to put the pieces of the puzzle together and sharing what you have learned.
Thanks for your recommendation. I will recheck into neuromas. The first time I read about them I didn’t think that sounded like what I had, but after all the intervening misdiagnoses, I will not overlook anything that might be causing what I’m going through. Also will be trying the lemon and olive oil, serrapep-tase and iodine recommended by others.
Thanks very much. I will be checking into neuromas.
Kathryn
Thanks for sharing your story. I do hope you get to the root cause of your feet sensations. I assume your doctor has tested for pre-diabetes/diabetes?
“Vascular calcifications” show up when you search with oxalosis so be sure to share this with your doctor. Do keep us posted as you explore possible oxalate connections.
I don’t yet know the ramifications of oxalates and the thyroid but will be looking into it.
I’m sure you will never get a straight answer from allopathic mainstream snake oil peddlers, doctors love the way plants send them patients for them to prescribe pharmaceuticals for plant poisoning. Thanks for the tip on lemon juice and olive oil. I want to aggressively start using Serrapitase but don’t know how much to take. Any suggestions on the mg’s per day to help with oxalates? I’m definitely going carnivore now!
Oxalates, lectins, groitegens, Anti nutrients etc etc, have convinced me to just say NO MORE PLANTS FOR ME!!!
Trudy, I have never had any symptoms of diabetes or test results indicating I have it. Thanks very nuch for your reply.
If you think it is a circulatory problem, perhaps the Dr Ho’s Pain therapy -circulation promoter might help. I bought one from Costco and it gave me great relief. Having also used a parasite zapper, the Dr Ho is much more powerful and I also felt die off symptoms. An increase in energy and vitality was almost immediate. I also added proteolytic enzymes to my morning routine to help break down unwanted stuff.
Hi, Trudy – I thought I would share my story with you as I think it is relevant. I do not have kidney stones or evidence of kidney dysfunction, but I have muscle and joint pain that I am convinced are the result of too much oxalate intake likely combined with a dysbiosis resulting from past antibiotic use and a foodborne illness in 2012 that seemed to be the trigger for my gut health to deteriorate.
Thanks to a perceptive mentor and the data and information on the Trying Low Oxalates Facebook group, I have been working on lowering the oxalate content of my diet. Your discussion of eye pain was interesting to me. I suspect that a partial 3rd nerve palsy of my right eye that I experienced in August of 2018 was related to oxalates. I was feeling “off” for a couple weeks before I lost motor control of my eyelid and just prior to that I had been on a vacation where my husband and I cooked spinach with our eggs and bacon EVERY morning in the Airbnb. No cause for the palsy was found after being tested for numerous autoimmune diseases. I didn’t identify oxalates as the problem until about a year ago.
I have recently made progress in reducing my intake over the last 2-3 months. My joint pain has actually increased in that same time period, and I suspect/hope this might be a sign that I am releasing oxalate from my cells. I am holding much hope that this joint and muscle pain will some day resolve! I look forward to your continued discussion of this topic. (I do not have a Vitamin C story because I luckily already knew about my oxalate problem before COVID and I was aware that taking more Vitamin C would not be a good idea!) BTW, I am also a Registered Dietitian.
Karen
Thanks for sharing your story and glad you’ve made progress. Glad vitamin C wasn’t part of the issue. I’m with you on all the gut connections (dysbiosis, antibiotics, foodborne illness).
I don’t know much about palsy but given there can be neurologic manifestations it’s very possible. I’m sure you’ve looked at the research and seen palsy connections like this study mentions palsy: Severe Oxalosis With Systemic Manifestations https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3279503/ (it was due to ethylene glycol toxicity due to it’s conversion to oxalates). Has your palsy now resolved?
As you know, Susan Owens describes the increased pain as dumping i.e. the oxalate stored in the body coming out in cycles. Based on feedback from folks in the Trying Low Oxalates Facebook group it can continue for some time. They have some good information on how to mitigate and handle this.
Yes, the palsy began and completely resolved within a span of about 6 weeks. I consider myself very fortunate!
Karen,
Have you studied nitrates and spinach? S;inach , celery, egg plant and beets are all very high in nitrates, as well as water is edging up from ag run off.
If I eat 3 thin slices of cooked celery I know I have a short time to get home and into bed or I cant walk, the pain is unbearable.
Celery seeds give me hives, took my over 25 years to learn that one. I feel that all of the bad dx are all tied together. When we kill the microbiome all hell breaks out and we are in a kind of prison. It really comes down to a “war zone” environment.
I do have a call into my mentor about the Indian probie species. To know it is out there and we can’t get it is insane. She may have a connection to at least look into it and make some waves or find someone to produce it in a form or mixture for us. Who knows, if we don’t try we have no relief.
HOPE
Cheryl
Please post back if you find a source for the Indian probiotic. I am in Canada…wonder if shipping here is possible?
Ive been juicing organic celery for a while now, as per the Medical Medium, and it has improved my health on many levels….I believe it kills underlying viruses we all have and has definately helped clean my liver ( my skin has cleared and my bowels are more regular and my energy is up), so I hope it isnt causing me kidney issues.
Diana,
I was surprised that you use celery juice. I avoid celery because of the oxalate level.
How much did you take since it did not trigger oxalate issues for you? I wonder if more of the oxalates are in the fiber portion?
Hi Trudy,
I’ve been researching oxalates for 17 years and am always on a low oxalate diet myself. I’ve also worked with many parents whose children have autism. I have never seen a child with autism who was not born with candida. Yeast are a major cause of oxalates. so one must conquer a yeast infection to lower oxalates in the body and. you don’t hear about that much. Mold too causes oxalates.
Great Plains tests for oxalates and mold. Their Organic Acid Test (OAT test) will reveal yeast as an issue. notice that you’ll usually see high yeast but also high oxalates on the OAT…
I don’t think people had a big issue with oxalates a few generations ago. but yeast/candida are such a huge problem today that oxalates have become a big problem now too.
While you can purchase the O. formigenes probiotic in India (from 2 different companies) it’s not allowed into the US…
That’s the bacteria that eats oxalate. His one and only job is to eat oxalates in fact. And when he’s missing from the gut because of antibiotics taking calcium citrate along with that oxalate food and or magnesium citrate will bind up the oxalate in the gut. There are a few other bacteria ( (lactobacillus and some strains of bifidus ) that also have the genes to eat oxalates but not as effectively as O. Formigenes does.
O. formigenes enters the microbiome in the gut when we start to crawl…but is destroyed by antibiotics and often is on the “missing microbes” list.
I’m glad you are bringing this information out to more people. People are drinking so much almond milk ( and other high oxalate nut milks) or putting it in their smoothies, making bread, cookies, pizza dough etc with almond flour because it’s”gluten free” but I just cringe knowing all the damage it’s doing. if you want to talk you know how to reach me. Donna
Hi Donna
So super to see you commenting here! I recently became aware of your oxalate expertise when I heard you interview Julie on the oxalate genes on your wonderful summit earlier this year. Thank you for sharing so much during that summit and here on the blog.
I’m with you on yeast, mold, the microbiome and antibiotics, almond milk (and other nut milks/cashew cheese etc) and almond/nut flours. As you know, the other issue with all the nuts/nut products is the high copper which factors into low zinc and increased anxiety/insomnia/low mood.
I do wish there was a good source of Oxalobacter formigines available as a supplement or a way to enhance our own production. Until then lactobacillus and some strains of bifidus will have to suffice. I’m curious if you’ve seen good results with Nephure?
So interesting that Oxalobacter formigines enters the microbiome when we start to crawl. I just found the study you’re probably referring to “humans apparently do not become colonized with O. formigenes until they begin crawling about in the environment” i.e. after 1 year of age https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S108485929780015X. Perhaps we need to go back to crawling or I wonder if gardening may help? I spent 15 years rock-climbing (hands and body on rock and in the dirt every weekend) and wonder if this helped keep my levels up and then they declined when I stopped?
my mother did not let me do very much crawling in order to keep be cleaner and healthier or so she thought…I wonder if that made me more prone to an oxalate problem after a dermatologist put me on antibiotics for acne for over a year [of course a year long was way too long anyway]….it never improved the acne but my mother read about how the antibiotics would cause problems even though there was no clear mention of candida or oxalates in the 1970s…. does anyone know if the dermatologists are still using long term antibiotics for acne?…..the lack of results did not seem to teach my dr anything
Donna
I know accutane is commonly used for acne
Has anyone used Chanca Piedra for kidney stones?
This is incredibly helpful as I’ve been navigating what I believe to be chronic Candidiasis, Mold Toxicity and Oxalate related “autoimmune” symptoms. Your story sounds the closest to mine that I’ve ever heard. Do you have a site related to your journey or a way to serve in a consultation manner? With Gratitude for your comment and for Trudy hosting this platform!
I read your blog on oxalates and pain and realized the connection. My husband and I both started high dose vitamin C with the COVID outbreak. We both were limping around with hip pain for a month or so. As soon as we stopped the vitamin C our limping and hip pain resolved. Thank you!
Deborah
Thanks for sharing and so glad you figured out the connections! Can you share how much vitamin C you used, which form and how quickly the hip pain eased once you stopped the high dose vitamin C? Do either of you have issues with high oxalate foods? And kidney stones/kidney issues?
Thank you Judy for all the research, I am learning so much from everybody by reading your comments.
Does anybody know the oxalate contents of Super Foods, like Maca, Lucuma, Moringa, Acai, and Hemp. Also garbanzo beans?
I have looked at many food lists but could not find an answer.
Lots of love,
Ingrid
We were taking Immuno-C by Truvani. Says 134 mg from Organic Amia Berries.
I don’t believe I had the joint pain with Liposomal VItamin C.
The pain went away within 2-3 days after stopping it.
I wonder if there is a difference in the type of vitamin C…powder VS the liquid or liposomal? Also, is it possible that high dose vitamin C is causing some kind of die off symptoms that manifest as joint pain? When I do periodic parasite cleansing, I get terrible joint pain but I know it is a die off symptom. Jut thinking out loud.
Trudy,
accutane can have life long terrible side effects; check out the nonindustry research
I know this is not your area of expertise but now you know it is bad
patients may not connect the side effects, such as joint pain, to the accutane
I outgrew acne 50 years ago but thanks for trying to be helpful
Hi Trudy,
Thank you for your amazing article, I don’t really know where to start but here goes, i have all the symptoms mentioned in the above post and i am in constant pain 24-7 my doctors say it is just the fibromyalgia that i have, but i have always suspected something else, ever since i went on a vegetarian diet about twelve years ago i ended up losing a bladder and had a eurostomy fitted to my right hand side, i have also had a left kidney removed where docs just put it down to kidney disease but was never detected until it was too late and had it removed, I drink black tea and black coffee all of the time, I have just ordered some B6 100mg and it says that long term use of B6 can be problematic, so not sure what to make of that, i also take calcium, magnesium, zinc and vitamin D comlex, 5-HTP 400mg and L-tryptophan and lastly high strength cranberry with vitamin c 10,000mg which i take for infections i get all the time with having the eurostomy, i am at my wits end now as i have tried all sorts of vitamins through the years and everyday i am in excruciating pain, the cranberry has kept the infections down. Thank you for listening.
Trudy you wrote: “ I’ve reached out to a number of researchers, practitioners and labs and they all state that oxalate crystal disease only happens with kidney disease/kidney stones. ”
“The good news is that a number of them are intrigued and interested in learning more.”
“I mean no disrespect to the study authors and researchers by sharing my insights and questions here and in the section above. I appreciate the work they do and the opportunity to learn from them.”
I think that you are to polite Trudy. Doctors know about Oxalate problem since late 1800. Globalized (Rockefeller) school medicine will “touch” Oxalates only when kidneys are involved.
Anything that’s going to interfere with their long therm business model is going to be put under the rag. When people say, that new “todays” knowledge needs 17-20 years to be implemented in practice of medicine, they are deceiving themselves. And when “new” knowledge is also involving miss issue of massive health wrenching antibiotics in live stocks? For bigger profits? O. Formigenes eat Oxalate crystals and with carbohydrate rich foods, antibiotics are one of main cause of Candida.
Also, doctors (Researchers)don’t want to go in Liver issue. Organ with 500 functions. Your oil filter.
Oxalate crystals extremely slow flow of liver bile. You motor oil against Candida, SIBO, and constipation. Same as throwing the sand in cogs. People need to learn about Portal Hypertension, Porto-Caval Anastomoses, when vein flow is reversed because of pressure in liver. 33-40% of Americans have fat liver, and it’s not good for business to mention that? Oh, so many “ symptoms “ to be fixed.
Is anybody ever mentioned, how Oxalates “flow” thru body? I had extreme travel job, and I was getting strong pulsating headaches after eating standard Amerikanischen meat. So I switched to full organic crap from California. I did one Liver Cleanse and i was feeling reborn. I didn’t know at the time that my liver was 50-60% slugged( Fat liver). Third day started massive Oxalate damping thru Liver. Only after i listened to Donna ( thank you), i knew what was part of the big problem. Hard cholesterol ( intra hepatic stones), chemicals, heavy metal, Oxalates, Candida toxins, low fat…..Heavy metals are conductive and messing up cell communications and functions. That’s the reason they put heavy metals in Adjuvants of vaccines. To “trap” immobilize dead cells in one place, for immune system to find them easier. I suspect that, when you have “wrong shot”, adjuvants can move and make blockade somewhere else?
Many late “new born” exercisers, exhausting themself to much and getting heart attacks. Heat is releasing to many Oxalates from tissues? In Italy, they did heart autopsies with such people, and only difference, they found is 10000 times more Mercury ( I think or Arsenic, I forget ) in heart muscles. We know that metals, disrupt electrical signals? That’s why Amalgams are good for you? Oxalates are negatively charged, and like to absorb mostly positively charged heavy metals. For that research, we are, “the public”, behind closed doors, choosing to spend 30 billion to upgrade CERN ( Hadron Collider). No practical implication, but maybe technological advantage over other countries for 1% of population.
People slowed buying foods loaded with Oxalates in California, so Arnold Schwarzneger made movie in
cooperation with Jackie Chan, about Vegetarianism, how good it is for you. Really? Somebody from Germany, mentioned that, MR Meat Universe, Schwarzneger , forget to mention that his friend has big farm, where is Pea grown and protein made. Thank god, not high oxalate Almonds…..
P.S.
From my experience, prostate is dumping ground( garbage can), but not so much for Oxalates. More for chemicals, heavy metals, estrogens, plastic additives…. People (doctors) have no idea how our “ pipeline “ systems work, and how easily is to mess them up from young age with Modern unCulture.
Bless you Trudy, I was very unhappy this morning about the additional pain and fatigue I have been experiencing lately, so I did EFT Tapping because I was at a loss and wanted to know WHY, so, here is the answer about Vit. C and Oxalates, just when I needed it.
I have been on a low Oxalate diet for some time, but I was still eating nuts and loads of Kiwi fruit, etc. though I stopped eating all those healthy greens and feeling guilty about it.
Recently I have listened to many free webinars and was convinced that high Vitamin C would be a prevention for Covid 19 and several other problems. I started to take 4 different kinds of vit. C, ( 2 different Liposimic C, one from a mixture of Acerola and other fruits, in powder form, one of the same in Capsules and some ascorbic C, as well as Calcium Ascorbate, ever though I had found out that only Magnesium acrorbate is best, but I didn’t want to toss it. Altogether about up to 6.000 mg a day, mostly about 4.000mg. ( I just poured out 1 pint of the mixture into the sink, ha)
Well, as I said, I have been desperate as to why I was having this additional pain in my feet, bones, muscles, tendons, ligaments, in other words, all through my body.
I have had CFIDS/ME, Fibromyalgia, Mercury poisoning, Epstein-Barr etc. for 55 years, or longer, I am not taking any medications, so I am used to having pain all over, but now it is in places where there was little before.
Thank you for doing research and making this problem known, I will get a test, adjust my diet and keep on going like the Energizer Bunny, many blessings,
Ingrid
Diane,
I am going to look into Frequency Microcurrent Therapy.
My life has to get better and I am desperate I guess.
Our whole bodies run on electricity , as our dead bodies have all of the chemical’s , but the power is gone. So I have studied in the past year and feel that it is my last chance.
Which could tie in with you Magnetic theory and healing.
We do have both of Dr. Carolyn McMakins DC books, now to read and study,
Had a horrible night and awakened with a headache that was over the top. So today I am going to be proactive and take two caps of C Citrate every 2 to 3 hours. Usually one take with meals but thought that if I stay ahead of the curve I may not hurt so bad at night.
After reading all of the comments and the symptoms I am overwhelmed with the total inflammation issues with oxalate damage. I fear in the long run we could all have nerve damage and what about organ failure?
Have not given up on importing or someone here (USA) manufacturing the OF gut bug needed to break down these nasty oxalates.
I am not a big meat eater and now am allergic to dairy so cooking with sour cream or yogurt is gone.
Have found it is not a win win situation contacting our senators, we need a backdoor approach to the FDA.
Has someone compiles the list of symptoms that posters have shared? I had no idea of how many areas oxalate damage affects.
Bet my parents had oxalate issues, and education is key.
Avoiding good nutrient dense foods is not the answer. And yes the lists are sometimes a joke. I feel that dose, time of day, other foods eaten and even the weather and stress compounds the pain.
Cheryl
Great blog post and lots of helpful info in the comments section too – thank you! Can’t wait for the follow up on solutions. Take care!
Love the work you are doing! Going on a low oxalate diet has changed my life considerably. As a Holistic Nutritionist set out to live a healthy lifestyle so I didn’t follow in my father’s footsteps of pain and suffering from heart disease and diabetes, I found myself in the midst of my own individual health crisis. I couldn’t figure out WHY the healthier I ate, the more “superfoods” I consumed, the more fresh-pressed green juices I drank, the worse I felt and the more symptoms I seemed to have: peripheral neuropathy, spinal stenosis, thyroid problems, heightened anxiety, adrenal fatigue, extreme lethargy, intense foot pain, constipation/abdominal pain, connective tissue instability, blurry vision, carpal tunnel, joint pain, shifting/opaque teeth, vein issues, and the list goes on…(although I never had a single kidney stone). I was always very flexible and limber and literally went from doing a cartwheel and round-off into the splits (at 52 years old!) to a short time later having my bones feel like they were crumbling underneath me. It was a very scary time yet I chose not to go the allopathic/medication route.
I *knew* there had to be a common denominator to all of my issues and I was determined to get to the root of why I was in the throes of a total body meltdown. I started putting the puzzle pieces together last year, eventually joined the ‘Trying Low Oxalates’ Facebook group (all researched based led by a top cell biologist and neuroscientist), and realized YES there is such a thing as eating too healthy, it’s called OXALATES. Spinach, almonds, cashews, sweet potatoes, beets, kiwi and collard greens, among others, were the heavy oxalate hitters I was regularly consuming. Ohh and that fad of drinking celery juice? Yep, I naively did that daily, too. It’s sad because the toxicity oxalates cause are doing their fair share of damage on SO MANY unsuspecting adults and children not only consuming “superfoods” like the ever-popular soy milk, almond milk, nut butters & flours, but also those who load up on chocolate, potato chips, french fries, and/or have taken their fair share of antibiotics like I did in my 30s altering my gut microbiome. Oxalates not only tie up the minerals in high oxalate foods (they especially bind to calcium among other minerals), they also impair mineral absorption and destroy mitochondrial function. No wonder my body was breaking down!
After starting a low oxalate diet and addressing my rapidly declining nutrient deficiencies due to the mineral chelation, along with upping my intake of protein, my body is responding and I am so grateful for my new awareness and increasing health. I actually had a bit of a setback not long ago because I was accidentally consuming a high-oxalate food hiding in my protein powder — rice bran — who knew! It took a couple of months to get back on track, but I’m persistent.
I fully believe our bodies have the ability to self-heal and self-correct when we listen to its innate intelligence and view our “pain” as our bodies wisdom indicator. I am faithful I will experience full healing and praise God for bringing such an innocent thing as eating the wrong foods to my attention. I have not only learned so much, but I’ve also met so many incredible people on my healing journey. I am grateful for all of it — every turn, every twist, every person, lesson, and blessing. Thank you for spreading the word and getting the truth out about these seemingly wholesome foods. It’s so lovely to meet you via your blog 🙂
Can you tell me what you eat? I can’t eat dairy or gluten so I do consume alot of almond milk, cashews,spinach, beets etc and I love potatoe chips.
I would love if you can send me some ideas. Thank you so much.
Debbie Moyer in SC.
Deborah D Moyer — Instead of almond milk, you could do coconut milk. Swap the spinach for arugula. Sprouted, organic pumpkin seeds, as well as sunflower butter, are safe options. Of course watch serving sizes. I personally eat a lot of various cuts of meat from my organic farmer (chicken, beef, pork, turkey), wild caught salmon, cod & shrimp, free range eggs, butternut & summer squash, cauliflower, peas, brussels, watermelon, gala apples, cherries, grapes, and so much more. I would not rely on the oxalate food lists found online, yet I HIGHLY RECOMMEND the list available on the Trying Low Oxalate Facebook group.
thank you so much.
I will check out the facebook group
Thanks all for you well thought out replies and over all knowledge.
We have eaten clean for almost 10 years and before that did not eat a SAD diet. My background and education is in a health care field and I was raised by very health oriented parents.
What I have realized from reading all of the posts is that I have other oxalate issues that needed addressing. So I looked at my supplements, timing and symptoms.
The last two weeks have been totally diferent pain wise. I added Calcium Citrate between meals and at night before bed to catch any stray oxalates or those stored ones.
My main syptoms have been UTI pain and discomfort and then newly hip and back pains.
This time of year with all of the smmer fruits I am tempted to over eat, but am trying to be good. With my histamine intolerance it all adds up.
I also started using Mag Oil spray on my back and my hip, amazing what that has done for my pain levels.
The one thing I can say is true is “stress'” is a huge issue for me when it comes to oxalate issues.
Ane the one last issue for me is being very aware of what i eat, the time, the amount and then staying on top of mapping and recognizing the syptoms.
I may be able to eat a small amount of mashed potatoes, but chips are a huge no no. I have always been a crip, fat and salty snacker.
I am sensitive to garbonzo beans, corn and other popular snack items, so still looking.
The pain resolution is so big I am not tempted to cheat.
Hoping that 3/5 Queen Anne Cherries dont do me in…
Thanks again for all of the issues, ideas and support.
I am attempting to find some solutions for all of us.
For some reason the spell check is not working on this site. The screen type is so fanit so hope I caught my typo’s.
Cheryl
Cheryl
Glad you’re figuring this out and finding relief – keeping a log and food diary is powerful! Keep in mind with oxalates it’s the load (often daily) but it can accumulate and cause issues a few weeks later (I’ve seen Susan Owen’s say 2 weeks). Cherries are low oxalate so enjoy them! But watch the potatoes which are medium to high oxalate (depending on the type).
are you using the B6 and magnesium that helps minimize the oxalate problem?
ask Trudy about doses
Hi Cheryl, I am looking at calcium citrate to add to my algae calcium but see different amounts in different brands. Since I do need to do the algae as it has worked for my osteoporosis but I want to add citrate for oxalates I wondered what dose you were taking, I know too much calcium in supplements isn’t good.
Thank you Trudy! Also to all who have posted. I found out I had a hard time with oxalates doing a “green smoothie” cleanse which gave me severe back (kidney ) pain! Other than that no kidney disease or pain but boy does my gut feel full of undigested food after high oxalate foods. I do consume a fair amount of macadamia nut milk which I did not know was high in oxalates, yikes! I’m on a natural healing journey for cancer and am finding how difficult it is when even naturopathic docs do not discuss or look for this issue! Yes, I have trouble digesting fat and have tested positive for mold. The lack of info forthcoming from all the mainstream health doctors on this issue is also astounding as well as frustrating. So thank you!
Sophia
Unfortunately a “green smoothie” cleanse is when many folks figure out they have oxalate issues. I love macadamias, they are medium/high oxalate and we are prone to high consumption when consumed as a nut milk. Addressing fat digestion (bile/pancreatic support) and mold toxicity is key too.
Oh, has anyone thought of or heard about a microbiome transplant for this oxalate problem? It really all tie back into the gut.
Sophia
I would love to see FMT/Fecal Microbiota Transplantation being considered but have not heard of any trials or anyone doing this. I’ll ask colleagues but it’s not the only factor to consider (more on that in the causes/solutions blog).
Well, I look forward to your next blog! I’d love to know all the causative factors. This oxalate problem is not normal at all. Im just trying to understand it all.
What company in India has cultured and made the probiotic that breaks down oxalates? I’d like to ask my doc about it.
Meanwhile a little FYI- I did a test called Viome (to check how your microbiome is) and they said 30% of their clients have a problem digesting oxaltes! That’s a lot of people. Seems we would have more info on it.
Trudy I uaw to be all for transplants, but some of the stories I have read scare me. i am trying to find legal and scientific sources that know the legal and political routes so we can get the correct speicies. There are abou four of them.
Tried to contact you but no luck.
I will not give up. Trying to put my presentation together to present to a research R and D team.
I found a tresure trove of research back to the 80’s,
Oxalates affect many different dx groups. Which makes it easier for us, as there so many others and most all docs have no idea. Your blog has made me so aware of how huge this whole issues really is.
Worrying about every thing we eat the amount , time of day, stress levels is insane.
This is like a slow incideious poison.
This is 4/5 th day with out UTI pain. I don’t even know how to act. H a ha
Other syptoms are still here. Summer use to be so delightuful, and oxalates put me in prison.
And a heads up to all family members who aren’t blessed, only one more abx can send them over the edge.
Some research has been done on the class of abx that causes it, but I have never taken them, so there have to be more.
Does anyone here have Candida or Histimine Intolerance issues also? I watch Night Shades as they can be so inflammatory.
Best all fellow Oxaies.. and laugh more, smile more and keep on researching.
Cheryl
I don’t know about legal issues but I read one story about a woman who got a fecal transplant from her daughter (all medically proper). She cured the thing that instigated it but got all her daughter’s other conditions as well – nearly doubled her in size! She was tiny, her daughter LARGE. I wouldn’t try it if you gave me $1 billion to do it! (I keep saying If you gave me a billion $, I wouldn’t be able to enjoy it as I don’t have my health – you can’t put a price on health!)
In regards to leafy greens – I saw something that said If there’s a nuclear incident, don’t eat leafy greens as they clean the air, so they pull in MORE radiation – then you eat it. Like soy, it’s a soil cleanser, it takes in the toxins from the soil, then you eat them (the ancient Japanese used to take weeks to cleanse the toxins out of soy before they ate it, like properly brewing beer, we don’t have the time for that in our madcap world.)
Wow, great article. I am always following the oxalate issue, both for myself and for my nutrition clients.
I have oxalate sensitivity to several high oxalate foods, including chocolate, almonds, and soy especially. If I have these foods, it can trigger a 5-7 day severe pain flare in an old sacral-iliac joint injury, and spasm my whole lower back. I also often feel a dull ache in my kidney area when I eat oxalate foods. And I’ve been very careful with Vitamin C. I increased my dosage recently because I felt a little ill, and that triggered me off, too.
Despite being super educated on this topic, I learned some new angles on this, so thank you!
Amanda
Thanks for contributing to the discussion and glad to hear you learned some new angles. It’s interesting how oxalates target an area of weakness or old injury.
May I ask how much vitamin C triggered you and what form you used? Does it trigger you in the same way as the high oxalate foods do?
I’m curious how often you’re seeing oxalate issues with your nutrition clients?
Please if someone can share the name of the organisms that break down oxalates and where to get them. My naturopathic doc can get some things that are not FDA approved. I can’t ask if I don’t know where to get them. Someone mentioned there are some from somewhere in India?
If he can get them, we can all order them through him! Possibly!
Plus if you have read or heard negative info about microbiome transplantation please do share. I read a negative article once however I don’t remember what it said plus would like to hear more.
the oxalobacter formigenes bacteria in everyone’s gut eats the oxalates in the foods but if a person uses a lot of antibiotics over a period of time the bacteria either gets reduced or possibly disappears all together…so now what will eat up the oxalates that are so irritating to the body?….I have read about different studies at medical universities…..when that bacteria was supplied to patients with high oxalate levels in their urine their painful symptoms disappeared….. I do not now where they got the bacteria unless they know how to grow it in a lab in small batches…….I have been looking for a source for over 20 years………not clear why the India suppliers will not sell it to the US….could it be that the drug industry jumped in to stop it? supposedly some probiotics will eat up the oxalates a little bit but I am not sure which ones…..does anyone else know and has had noticeable results…..none of my holistic drs have a clue..
Such an irritating problem without answers!
So I just had some testing showing a moderate amount of C-Diff in my gut. My naturopathic doctor said that C-Diff eats the oxalates! So I need some of this oxalobacter formigines to compete with these bad guys C-Diff. I don’t have pain thankfully but I cannot seem to get the gut right to digest food. It’s so limiting.
I wonder if I ate some dirt if that would help:). I may just try that when I’m out hiking in the wilderness somewhere!
The FDA will not allow it, it could help those with CF, oxlates and ASD. :Pub Med is loaded with real research on Oxalates and help, but until the FDA is convinced it is a dead issue.
A sma;l pin head amount costs $450 or so and you have to have all of the proper legal lab papers to buy it, I spoke with a man at a lab that sells it.
I have one more idea and am trying to build up the courage to call and make an appointment to talke with an R and D team. I won’t give up , by my life has to go on and I can’t take all of my days to battle this issue. I no longer have a secretary and it takes a ton of time.
Cheryl
But it could impact the kidney dyalisis market. It is so sad.
Donna, research has shown that these gut bacteria show up after the age of 3. Few children are crawling at age 3.
It usually is killed by too many antiboitics. And OF is not the whole answer. There have to be comencel bacteria that support OF.
I am ordering some urintary track probiotics tomorrow.
Fund one called “ultimate Flour Woman’s complet, 90 billion with 12 strains.
I have added Mag Citrate did get the B 6 but took at night and it was not good for me. So will take in the am.
I backed off on my common intake and elimated some foods. Potatoes of any kind appear to be a trigger.
I do faithfully take Cal Citrate ;many times through out the day. I also drink freash organic lemon water with pure 98% stevia daily.
Because we eat so clean and organic, gf, ,sugar free and few if any packaged items I can tell in a short time if I am going to react.
The print on this blog is so faint that I can barely read it, and brighter lights do not help.
My computer doe not have a setting to make the print darker.
And it appears that there is no spell check. So hope my spelling is okay.
For the person who is interested in Fecal transplants, I looked into in many years back and I follow the regular transplant arena. I would not do it, it has caused some deaths with medical and hopsital help.
The other thing is that this organiism does not not appear in the gut before age 3 so using newbor n poo is worthless. I did read a blog where a father who is a doctor used his newborns poo with out any positive changes.
With Heavey Metal issues in vaccine, foodbrone illnesses, and parasites I am not willing to go any where near it. The microbiomen has tons more DNA than our whle bodies DNA.
I have studied the biome and know too much. Anything that goes in , can and does create changes.
One area I have studied is how transplants can and do change your whole body. It came very close to home when a dear friend called to share what has happened to her cousin who just had his second heart transplant and cries all the time.
Our grandsons organs were donated, I doubt that the surgeions ever mention this childs problems. It is a huge money making practice. I am sure that there have been many successful transplants.
The drugs about 15 yrs ago cost $150,000 per patient. I have a dear young single father who is a friend, he is now disabled and spend so much time in the hospital with his transplant issues.
Unless there is real reasearch out that that is published in a pristine journal with real data, too many papers are not true and some are all lies. In recent time, in the last two months two research papers were recinded as they were both false.
So many just read the summary or the abstract, which is like an ad…
I have a husband with health issues, and a vaccine injured son who is totally disabled, so I am always reaseaching and seeking solutions.
Trying tow see if manybe I could do some fermentation and create a veggie mix that would promote good gut bugs. Lacto Plantraim is one of the friend of OF, don’t want to add dirt right now as we are in ranch country and the wind blow and the sand is all over the place. Cow poo dries and floats on sale barn days.
So many organic soils sold have biosludge as part of the mix. And in one major city their city made compost killed a womanns whold newly planted garden . They tested it and the toxin levels were so high. They pulled the product and stopped all composting pronto.
I still feel we need to lobby the FDA to allow it in to the country. But the research says it has to be taken all the time because it will not repopulate. So there are some comensil bactera that are needed like permaculture.
My last advice is to see if you have vagus nerve damage as you can’t heal leaky gut with vagus nerve damage. So we have to heal it all.
Best too all as this is summer with all of the delicious veggies and fruits to eat. And momma’s rhurbarb just staring me in the face. Maybe someday I will get to eat it again.
Cheryl
I have Macular Degeneration and have been told to eat leafy greens for my eyes, the ones that you identify as high in oxalates. I also do have some strange foot pain at times, just in one foot, and down by my toes, three of my toes. It’s not there consistently. When I do get it, using an ice pack helps. Are you saying that oxylates are a problem for everyone or just some people? Thanks!
Cathie
Not everyone has issues with oxalates so it’s a matter of reducing high oxalate foods to see if changes in pain levels are noticed. If oxalates are found to be an issue there are still leafy greens that are not high oxalates. Some examples include: dino kale, mustard greens, water cress and turnip greens. This is a good blog on the topic http://lowoxalateinfo.com/guide-to-low-oxalate-greens/
Thanks so much much for your reply, Trudy! My foot problem sounds like it could be Morton’s Neuroma, that was talked about on the blog by someone else. Can’t recall if that could be due to high oxalates or not. Perhaps I will try to get tested for oxylates.
I’ve had Morton’s Neuroma for about 5 years and it’s getting MUCH better on a low oxalate diet. I’m faithful it will fully resolve itself. I’ve read on PubMed that Morton’s Neuroma is an interdigital nerve compression with the presence of inflammatory tissue. I was also tested for food sensitivities and backing off foods which were inflammatory to my system has also helped. So did reflexology and Epsom salt foot soaks. Good luck to you…and no more heels 🙂
Victoria Ann, did you have the Morton’s Neuroma diagnosed by your family doctor, or how? I may go to a Naturopath when Covid is over and get tested for oxylates. My foot pain isn’t constant. I have never worn “heels”, but I do have high arches and have had planter fasciitis in the other foot heel.
Hi Cathie,
A podiatrist diagnosed me. I only went to him for the diagnosis. You can test for oxalates yourself by ordering the Organic Acid Test (OAT) online by Great Plains Laboratory. Susan Owens (the cell biologist that started the Trying Low Oxalates [TLO] Facebook group) can interpret. I’ve had a very challenging time finding any type of doctor or even naturopath who knows about Oxalates — or if they do, they don’t know much…at least not yet. My best mentors were Susan Owens and her group on Facebook, along with Sally K. Norton. There’s also an online oxalate class totally worth the money offered by Functional Diagnostic Nutrition. I learned a lot from their curriculum which parallels the science behind the TLO Facebook group.
Also…as an important side note, Oxalates aren’t always detected on an OAT test. Oftentimes people get a false negative if they’re not “dumping” at the time of testing. However, Susan knows how to see beyond the false negatives since she has interpreted over 1500 OAT tests.
I’ve been at this a while — over 1.5 years on LOD and will continue to eat low oxalates for life, it’s made a significant difference healing most of my issues by about 80% and I had a LOT of things wrong with me. Praise God for Trudy and others sharing the word about oxalates.
I have oxalate arthropathy and vulvodynia. I have never had kidney stones but I did have a salivary stone once. Kidneys were checked and normal when this began 10 years ago. Kidneys were checked again last year and appear perfectly healthy. No stones. No disease. Everything you said in this blog is accurate for my situation. I am having the hardest time finding someone to treat this condition. I just started seeing someone at Stanford in California for digestive issues but am trying to get a referral for genetic testing to see if my oxalate issue is genetic or digestive. Requesting genetic testing is very delicate, so I’m told. Insurance rarely grants approval. I read the article you posted quotes from, prior to reading your blog and found it to be the most accurate description of my problems that I’ve come across.
Tausha
Thank you for contributing to the discussion. Glad to hear this blog was helpful and an accurate description of your problems.
You will likely find it challenging to find someone in conventional medicine to acknowledge that you have oxalate arthropathy and vulvodynia with no kidney disease. Susan Owens site and Trying Low Oxalates Facebook group are excellent for learning, support and feedback. I assume you are eating a low oxalate diet already and it’s helping with symptom relief? A functional medicine doctor would be able to help with genetic testing and an OAT/Organic Acids test may be helpful too.
Apologies for the delay in your comment approval and my response. We had a computer glitch where a large number of comments were hidden from view in a spam folder. It mostly affected new folks who were commenting for the first time but it’s hopefully resolved now.
What about herbs are they high in Oxalates? My child has multiple bacterial infections the doctor said use herbals but my son does have an oxalate problem I see in his stool
Liz
Yes many herbs are high in oxalates and would need to be assessed /trialed on a case by case basis.
Trudy, Hi. I need to be brief this evening (that I thought was morning,)–& say YES, YES, YES! I qualify!!! And your descriptions help me hone in on the few RIGHT TERMS! I am literally bedazzled with painful crystals in my skin, and believe I can now identify the burning in my back, ankles, everywhere as the same that often accompanies an exiting crystal. I have phenomenal photographs. Hurts to look at them. Still in progress. I believe this will all lead to BETTER. BTW, I have had kidney stones but have a good but declining egfr. I’m racing to get health & solutions so my kidneys don’t succumb to this flood of crystals…about 5 months through skin on hands, lower mucous membranes, scalp, and about 18 months through my face. Intermittently over the years without recognition. Hello, sister!!! Thank you!
Suzy
Thanks for sharing and glad this was helpful
I was having SEVERE joint pain that came out of nowhere after I had my amalgams taken out (thinking perhaps some metals got into my body and caused gut sensitivity). Whatever the case, it was awful. A friend brought up oxalates and I knew it was my issue due to the fact that I was eating a lot of cacao smoothie with berries, kiwis, spinach, the works and I was a vegetarian. I knew it was oxalates because I had crystals in my eyes in the AM and crystals in the outer ear. So, I cut down on them and the joint/bone pain went away, eye crystals and now, 4 months later, I just have really painful ankles when I’ve been sleeping or stationary for a bit. My elbows also hurt. I’m hoping that it’s the crystals moving out of me (which is what I heard). I would love to get rid of this ankle pain.
Katie
What wonderful results for joint/bone pain and your eyes. Some folks have delayed oxalate dumping causing pain especially if they cut back too quickly. Exploring other causes may be worthwhile too – nightshades, gluten is they are still in the diet, low omega-3s, low endorphins (https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/what-is-the-difference-between-dpa-and-dlpa-amino-acids-and-which-one-do-i-use-for-weepiness-heart-ache-pain-and-energy/), low GABA or low serotonin etc
hi
I am amazed at this. I have fibromyalgia running 38 years
I have all the problems here but my kidney blood tests are OK.
but has this happened to the anyone else? : I took trio amino acid and I also took serrapeptase . Then my ceramic toilet got destroyed by some sediment from my urine . Testing the urine for cystitis etc. they found nothing. I was sent to the rare disease hospital and they found nothing in my blood test but I forgot to leave a urine sample.
I guess I don’t need to worry about dumping because I have already done that.
Thank you so much for this information.
kind regards
Tricia UK
Tricia
Glad to hear you have made a possible oxalate connection. Keep in mind dumping is not a once-off thing and can go on for months and months and sometimes years. Unfortunately testing often doesn’t offer insights.
Do keep us posted on how low oxalate eating and the other protocols work for you in terms of easing your pain.
Thank you. I will let you know
Tricia
Oh I’m terrified when you say dumping can last for months and months or even years, I have pain in my 2 shoulders, and I’m thinking more and more seriously that it’s a problem of oxalate, but I’m already 62 and I don’t want to suffer for years
Nathalie
I had no dumping at all and for some it’s minimal and better than the pain
how do oxalate crystals eliminate through the skin??? how does one know they’re in the eyes/ears?
and, I’m not clear on b6, mag, and calcium…are these good or bad?
one person mentioned her child’s oxalate poop….what could that mean?
Melissa
I’ve heard feedback that folks notice crystals on their skin. With the eyes, a crusty discharge can be observed and with the ears they can show up as itchiness and crustiness.
The citrate forms of calcium and magnesium can help bind oxalates and vitamin B6 helps in some instances too.
I am now lox ox,but still have issue with dry eyes and blepharitis and mgd…on my lower lids i often have to massage up to get the junk out…i dont take b6 or mag calcium should i try this?
Kim
I have found many clients benefit from vitamin B6 and calcium citrate when dietary oxalates cause eye issues and build up of crystals, itchiness, scratchiness and pain.
It’s also best to make sure there isn’t also an infection and address that aspect too
Hi Trudy, I’ve had the inner ear issue as well as a hip fluid aspiration with crystals in the past. Now I’m dealing with IC for the past few years and wonder if the cause of all issue has been oxalates. Do you have any suggestions on supplements to help reduce oxylates? Is there a blood test for oxylates other than the kidney test? Thank you for doing this research!
Jenny
Best is to start slowly reducing high and medium oxalate foods. All of the following can help: calcium citrate, vitamin B6, addressing gut health and poor fat digestion, drinking enough water. The TLO facebook page is a great resource
There is no blood test
Hi Trudy, I have recurring salivary stones. I had two removed in April after a CT scan. Had more pain since then and found 2 more stones this month. I’m being referred to a doctor out of town for this issue. I have gone down a rabbit hole trying to figure out what causes salivary stones, but the doctors just say it’s dehydration. I drink water all the time so I feel like it’s something else. I started researching calcifications in the body and think oxalates have contributed to why I’ve had stones. I used to drink tea every single day, and I’ve definitely eaten foods high in oxalates. Do you know how to dissolve the salivary stones naturally? One is 6 mm and the other is 2 mm. Does Chanca Piedra work for salivary stones? Should I be taking B6 and K2 as well. Please help. Thank you!
Erin
I don’t have much expertise in salivary stones but from posts on the TLO (trying low oxalates) facebook group they may be related to oxalates but not always. Per this paper “Carbonate apatite was identified in 99% of the stones, phosphate in 88%, calcium in 87%, magnesium in 68%, struvite in 44%, oxalate in 38% and carbonate in 35%.” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30148468/
There also often seems to be a bacterial and/or biofilm aspect – “Salivary stones are susceptible to bacterial biofilm formation” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31028534/
Does anyone know if high oxalates can cause crystals in the sinuses resulting in long-term sinus infections and sinus headaches? I have had them for years and wondered if it is due to Candidia, but now I am wondering if it might be due to high oxalates. Rinsing with saline solution helps me, but it keeps recurring. Why would saline solution help reduce oxalate crystals in the sinus tissue, if it does? I have some other symptoms in common with Candida and the Candida treatment Canxida Remove helps to reduce the severity and frequency of the sinus and other symptoms. But your article about high oxalates showed me some symptoms that fit me, as well: interstitial cystitus, joint issues, eye pain (occasidonally), etc.
I have not had any testing for oxalates. Looking at my diet, I see it is high in oxalates (probably since I was a child) and I never even knew it could be an issue except with kidney stones (which I don’t have). But I started using more lemon juice and taking calcium citrate and B6 (P5P). I’m also using a good enzyme that has ox bile in it too. Eating more calcium, which I didn’t eat much of for years. Note that many functional med Drs have been stating for several years to not supplement with calcium and to limit dairy….which stops removal of oxalates through the gut.
Interestingly, through you Trudy, I also became aware of histamine intolerance and MCAS (Mast Cell Activation Syndrome) and realized that I have both. I’m not sure how high oxalates fit in with high histamine and MCAS, but I’ve heard they do.
Anything anyone else can suggest to do for the sinus infection (which a Dr assured me I do not have!) and sinus headaches?
Patrice
I don’t have an answer but reducing medium and high oxalate foods (slowly) and monitoring symptoms would be what I would do. Per folks in the TLO/Trying low oxalates FB group, sinus problems can be caused by oxalate issues and we know oxalate issues can be made worse by candida/fungal infections – jump in and ask questions there to and hopefully someone in this community will have some feedback for you.
Thanks Trudy. Interestingly, I did post this question about oxalate crystals and sinus problems on the TLO FB page and the admins there REFUSED TO POST IT, TWICE! With no explanation. They are like FB nazis!
Thanks Trudy for telling me about high oxalates being a problem even if you don’t have kidney stones! I have high histamine and I’m pretty sure Candida too, and now I am nearly certain I have high oxalates. I was wondering how these relate and did some digging. Here’s what I found: high oxalates can cause high histamine! And Candida can cause high oxalates! Also, I wondered if the pain in muscles (fibromyalgia could be due to calcium oxalate crystals) and YES it can be!! Here is an excerpt from an online article about this:
An accumulation of oxalic acid crystals in the muscle and connective tissue cells may be the cause of the muscle aches and pain associated with Fibromyalgia syndrome (FMS).
“When too much oxalate is absorbed into the bloodstream via the gut, it can team up with calcium to form sharp calcium-oxalate crystals. These crystals can then wedge themselves into tissue almost anywhere in the body causing damage and/or exacerbating pain and inflammation. Most people are able to tolerate and safely process oxalate out of the gut through the stool. However people with fibromyalgia due to poor intestinal permeability (leaky gut) and inflammation are much less likely to be able to metabolize oxalates which leads to increased pain and suffering.
“Another oxalate connection relates to Candida and yeast overgrowth. Good bacteria in the gut help to keep oxalates in check by breaking them down. Bad bacteria in the gut can produce oxalates. Oxalates are said to suppress the immune system and make one more susceptible to Candida overgrowth. Therefore, along with a low oxalate diet, addressing yeast is imperative to reducing the overall oxalate load.
“There are even more implications of oxalates in the body. For example, oxalates are said to suppress the immune system and make one more susceptible to Candida overgrowth. Oxalates deplete glutathione, one of the body’s key antioxidants; oxalates change how zinc works within the body, which can affect immune function; and oxalates also fuel inflammation, a major issue in Fibromyalgia.”
This excerpt is from:
https://www.transformationhealth.com.au/post/ouchy-oxalates-and-the-fibromyalgia-connection
This is AMAZING information and will be very helpful in getting rid of high oxalates, Candida, and high histamine.
Patrice
Thanks for sharing this helpful excerpt- it’s spot on. Glad you’re making these connections for yourself. Do keep us posted on progress
I’m not aware of this connection though – high oxalates can cause high histamine
Here is another health breakthrough I just found. I have realized I have high oxalates, in addition to high histamine, MCAS, and Candida. I heard that lemon juice/water can help dissolve the calcium oxalate crystals. I wondered about malic acid and had some malic acid capsules (800 mg each) at home. So I started taking one a day over a week ago. Sometimes 2 a day, 1 am, 1 later in the day. MY ACNE on my face is nearly gone!!! It is MUCH better. I was taking ginseng to help reduce this (which worked fairly well, but not completely, it reduces histamine due to MCAS). DAO also helps alot (I have high histamine). I stopped the ginseng before I started the Malic acid and I had stopped the DAO months ago. Now I wonder if the facial acne was due to calcium oxalate crystals in the face skin? And the malic acid helps dissolve them? Anyone know exactly why the malic acid has helped my acne? Anyone have any similar responses?
Patrice
Malic acid often helps with softening and breaking down gallstones so that may be a connection worth exploring especially since bile issues affect fat digestion and make oxalates issues more severe.
hi there
will ANY gelatin capsule, plant or animal source convert to oxalates? most supplements, unless pure powder that are capsules are made with gelatin capsules….and, more gelatin equals more oxalates?
appreciate
email if you could!
appreciate it
Tyson
Both gelatin and collagen (animal sourced) contain hydroxyproline which is an oxalate precursor. Gelatin capsules may possibly cause issues if many supplements are consumed. Most supplements are now made with cellulose capsules so this has become less of an issue when it comes to oxalates but more of an issue for individuals with SIBO or food sensitivities to whatever the cellulose is made from.
Feel free to share your experiences