I have concerns regarding the use of high doses of oral vitamin C for boosting immunity – for a subset of susceptible individuals who have dietary oxalate issues. This is directly related to the many recommendations that have been and are being made in relation to the coronavirus pandemic, but it applies beyond the pandemic for anyone who has dietary oxalate issues. My concerns relate to high doses of vitamin C making existing pain symptoms worse or even causing new pain symptoms in someone who is not aware they may have oxalate problems. This may include joint pain, vulvodynia, bladder pain, painful urination, eye pain, headaches, foot pain, stomach pain, general body pain, deep bone pain etc. All this can manifest as fatigue, irritability, anxiety, low mood and insomnia.
I’ve been promising to blog about this topic for over a month and have gathered enough information for a short book! I figured a good place to start is to share feedback I’ve received so far and ask for your feedback so we can learn and heal, educate and inform others going through this, as well as offer insights to researchers and doctors who are not aware of this issue (and sometimes say “based on biology it’s not possible”).
In the coming weeks, if there is enough interest, I’ll share additional information on mechanisms, what the research says and what the research says is not possible, labs, types of oxalate issues (there are many), the possible causes (there are also many) and long-term impacts beyond pain (for the thyroid, mitochondria, heart and more), the solutions, additional resources and feedback from experts (of which there are very few – as of now I’ve been reading everything published by Susan Owens, Julie Matthews, Great Plains Labs and research published by kidney specialists).
Until then I’m humbly asking for your feedback. If you have no idea what oxalates are or are taking vitamin C with no issues, then please don’t worry. Things will become clearer as you read this blog and read follow-on blogs. I feel it’s really important to get this initial blog out rather than waiting until I have everything written up perfectly.
I’ve also been hearing feedback from folks who have now recovered from coronavirus or are still recovering, with many reporting lingering pain and fatigue. I am concerned some of that pain may be related to high doses of oral vitamin C or IV (intravenous) vitamin C leading to oxalate issues they may not be aware of.
My request to you – please share your vitamin C oxalate story
This is what I posted on facebook and I’ll simply share it again here: I’m looking for oxalate vitamin C stories to share with folks who don’t believe or are not aware that high dose vitamin C causes issues for those with dietary oxalate issues.
1) What symptoms do you experience?
2) How quickly do you notice symptoms after taking vitamin C?
3) What form of C have you tried? (ascorbic acid or Ester C or whole food sources of C like camu camu/amla/goji berry/acerola cherry/rosehips/kakadu plum/acai berry/ maqui berry or liposomal or something else). Please also share the brand and source of vitamin C if you know
4) How much vitamin C do you use and is this more than you usually take or are you/were you taking this for the first time?
5) How long did it take to get back to normal/no pain/no symptoms once you stopped taking vitamin C?
NOTE – ONLY VITAMIN C: for questions 2) through 5) – in order to be sure the new symptoms are due to vitamin C and not something else – the addition of vitamin C must be the only change made and then stopping vitamin C must also be the only change made. I have clients keep a log too and repeat the “test” if they are not sure. This can be likened to a gluten elimination trial but in reverse. Repeating the “test”also depends on the symptom severity.
6) Does/did anything help to counter the adverse effects (like calcium citrate, vitamin B6, NAC, MSM, biotin, bile support, Epsom salts baths or anything else)?
7) How long have oxalates been an issue for you and are you eating low oxalate? Or is this all new to you?
8) Would you equate the effects of vitamin C to eating high oxalate foods like spinach, raspberries, nuts and seeds, kiwi fruit, figs, turmeric, chocolate, wheat, white potato, soy, beets etc (less severe/same symptoms/more severe)?
I’m also adding these new questions based on some of the research I’ve been doing:
9) Are you aware of any kidney issues and if you get regular blood work done do you track and take note of your estimated Glomerular Filtration Rate (eGFR)? What have you observed in terms of values? (In case eGFR is new to you it measures how well your kidneys filter the wastes from your blood and is the best overall measure of kidney function. It helps determine if you have any kidney damage.) Have you ever been told you have kidney issues and have other kidney lab markers out of range?
10) What are your results on the Great Plains Lab organic acids test (OAT) for the following: Oxalic acid, Glycolic acid (glycolate), Glyceric acid (glycerate), Arabinose (a yeast/candida marker) Ascorbic acid (ascorbate, vitamin C), Pyridoxic acid (marker of vitamin B6 status), Furandicarboxylic acid and hydroxy-methylfuroic acid (markers for fungi such as Aspergillus), and markers of bacterial imbalance?
11) Do you have pyroluria (based on a urine test) or have more than 15 symptoms from the the pyroluria questionnaire and/or are susceptible to low vitamin B6 (poor dream recall and/or nightmares) and low zinc (and therefore high copper)?
12) How do you score on symptoms of low serotonin, low GABA, low endorphins and low catecholamines? (here is that questionnaire). Is your anxiety, low mood, cravings or sleep worse when you are dealing with your other oxalate symptoms/pain?
13) Do you have any genetic markers that indicate a susceptibility for oxalate issues?
14) Do you have celiac disease, gluten sensitivity, leaky gut, liver issues, gall stones, no gallbladder, poor bile production, fat malabsorption, mold toxicity issues, low pancreatic enzymes, candida, high iron/ferritin?
15) What are your results on a mold toxicity test such as the Great Plains MycoTOX profile? and/or do you live in a moldy home/worked in a moldy environment or have in the recent past?
16) What are you results on a stool test (and which stool test)?
17) Do you have high mercury, high lead or high levels of other metals?
18) What is your vitamin D level (now if you happen to know it and/or typical levels in the past) and did you start to take extra vitamin D during this pandemic too? If you are taking extra vitamin D how much extra? And does your vitamin D supplement also contain vitamin K1 and vitamin K2?
19) Do you have any other out-of-range (functional levels) markers on blood work or other lab tests?
I will come back and add references and the rationale for posing these questions.
Also, feel free to comment with a nickname to keep your health information private.
Josefin’s story: painful “fat tissue” around elbows, knees and hips, and an irritated bladder
I share some of the Facebook feedback below, but first, here are Josefin’s comments on my coronavirus blog. Josefin thanked me for not ignoring the oxalate problems that might come with higher doses of vitamin C, saying she has “experienced them first-hand and it is not something to take lightly.”
I asked her to share what happens when she eats medium and high oxalate foods (like spinach, nuts, kiwi fruit, chocolate etc). She shared this:
I gradually decreased my oxalate content in food as recommended in the TLO-group. During that year I experienced periods with a lot of the typical dumping-signs like sandy stools, pain in body and especially in joints and muscles, sand in eyes, bladder pain, peeing a lot, cravings for oxalate foods and a temporary relief in the dumping symptoms when I ate some higher oxalate foods.
I also realized that the painful “fat tissue” that I had all over the body (but mainly around elbows, knees and hips) for 10 years was really deposited oxalates with mostly fluid around it, since I lost it more and more while I dumped and had more pain there also when I dumped. Now the deposits are all gone.
I did want to know if the adverse symptoms she experienced with vitamin C were the same as when eating foods high in oxalates, and she confirmed they were:
Many of the symptoms of dumping were the same as I had previously experienced a few days to weeks after trying to do bowel flushes with vitamin C.
Josefin has been on a low oxalate diet for 3 years and has found the most vitamin C she can tolerate is 200-250mg of vitamin C per day. More about that in her own words:
Now after being on a low oxalate diet for 3 years (carnivore the last year) I have tried taking vitamin C very many times and come to the conclusion that about 200-250 mg per day is what I can take. If I take more I will get a gradual increase of that painful fat-tissue that will start after a few days to weeks depending on how much vitamin C I take. I will also get more of a flu feeling and irritated bladder.
When I stop taking the vitamin C I will within a day or two get all my typical dumping symptoms and they will continue for days to weeks depending on how much I have taken. Symptoms severity also depends on how much I have been taking.
It turns out she gets similar reactions with various forms of vitamin C: “ascorbic acid, calcium ascorbate, multimineral buffered ascorbate and also liposomal vitamin C from Quicksilver Scientific”.
Syd’s story: cystitis, along with a crashed brain
Syd shared this on the Facebook post:
I get symptoms from taking high dose Vitamin C within about 45 minutes. It shows up as cystitis, mostly, along with a crashed brain.
She did confirm that when taking vitamin C (possibly the ascorbic acid form) the symptoms mimic her symptoms when eating high oxalate foods. She also wants to try liposomal vitamin C and camu camu to figure out if she gets the same reactions:
I have the very same response to high oxalate foods. I used to think it was a bladder infection, but I tested four times and every time the test was negative. I’m having a response at the moment. I (stupidly) started eating protein bars that have nuts in them and after eating about four of them across several days, I have the cystitis symptoms.
I’m staring at some liposomal Vit C in the fridge that I’ve been wanting to try at a low dose. Same with some camu camu. I need the cystitis symptoms to abate first.
Virginia, Cathi and Melissa and their pain stories
Virginia also offered feedback on Facebook on her experiences with vitamin C, and again they are similar to when she eats high oxalate foods:
I took a pack of Vit C 1000mg (ascorbic acid) at night last week, next morning I noticed oxalate dumping. Took calcium citrate and it was gone within a day and yes the reaction is similar to eating high oxalate foods
On another Facebook thread my question got Cathi wondering if vitamin C was a factor in her worsening arthritis:
Hmmmmmm this has me thinking. I started Vitamin C crystals 1000mg a day – small spoonful in water. It is sour and not awful. Then, a couple of months ago the arthritis deposits in my right hand fingers got much worse and my right wrist has given me so much grief I have had to reduce my yoga. And I got a weird cyst or something on the inside of my right wrist. I wonder…. Gonna stop it and see if it makes a difference!!! Thank you as I was totally stumped and I hope this is the answer!!!!
On this same thread, Melissa shared that noticed severe joint and muscle pain within 2 or 3 days of starting vitamin C:
When the COVID stuff started, I started taking vitamin C as a preventative measure to keep my immune system strong. Within two or three days, I had system joint and muscle pain everywhere. I could hardly move! I stopped the vitamin C and it cleared up in 3 or 4 days. I’ve never had kidney stones, but my brother has, so maybe it’s a genetic predisposition? I do have a history of on & off systemic joint pain since my early 20’s.
I never thought I had oxalate issues but now I’m wondering if it might be related to my random systemic joint pain.
I was taking between 1,000 to 3,000 mg per day. The label says Solaray timed release vitamin c (ascorbic acid), acerola cherry and rose hips.
Thanks to these folks, everyone who has already contributed on other blogs, all the Facebook feedback (and to you if you provide feedback today).
My hesitation – I don’t have all the answers and we are in the midst of a pandemic where vitamin C is so important
I planned to include this in part 2 but I’m adding this section now because a few hours after publication there are already so many comments and questions. I did hesitate about publishing this blog when I don’t have all the answers and because we’re in the midst of a pandemic where vitamin C has been shown to be very important.
There is plenty of research on the benefits of vitamin C and it’s widely used with much success during serious illness and for sepsis. This paper, An Update on Current Therapeutic Drugs Treating COVID-19, published just last month, discusses vitamin C (ascorbic acid) as a supporting agent, playing a role as a potent antioxidant, with benefits for immune health and as an antiviral against flu viruses.
It also discusses an IV vitamin C coronavirus trial and high dosages currently being used in various hospitals for this virus. The authors do also say “no major side effects” which is what we are typically told about vitamin C.
The Orthomolecular Medicine News Service have issued a number of valuable press releases on vitamin C specific to coronavirus but they are steadfast in their conviction that there are no issues with vitamin C, saying it doesn’t cause kidney stones.
For the majority (I think) there will be no major side-effects but for those with oxalate issues high doses of vitamin C are clearly problematic.
One caveat is that there may be a place for short-term high-dose use during a healing crisis, even for someone with dietary oxalate issues. Unfortunately I don’t have an answer for this aspect yet and I’m hoping a vitamin C expert will contribute to the discussion or I’ll discover some research about this.
And let’s not forget this study published in 1994, The clinical effects of vitamin C supplementation in elderly hospitalised patients with acute respiratory infections, where 200mg of supplemental vitamin C per day resulted in an 80% decrease in deaths among severely ill, hospitalized respiratory disease patients.
This topic is near and dear to my heart and folks have oxalate issues now so I decided to go ahead and publish this information. I’m looking for a solution for my community who are already aware they have oxalate issues (many of you have already reached out to me so thank you) and for myself too. I’ll share details of my oxalate story (my pain is in my feet and my eyes) and my vitamin C experiment in a future blog (I used food based vitamin C and 100-200mg/day and it didn’t go well).
As I mentioned above, I’m also concerned there are many people who don’t know they have oxalate issues and may end up with issues because of all the well-meaning vitamin C advice that is being shared during this pandemic.
I may have bitten off more than I can handle with this topic – I’m learning voraciously and it’s like drinking from a fire-hose! But I’m doing what I often do … I learn by teaching and asking for your feedback and questions, and I’m open about the fact that I’m not an expert and don’t have all the answers.
**** Some cautions *****
Please discuss your situation with your doctor and other health practitioners before stopping or reducing vitamin C based on what you’re reading here.
If you are completely new to the topic of oxalates, this is sound advice from Susan Owens on getting started: “work your way gradually into a completely low oxalate diet.” You can learn more on getting started here. Susan runs the Trying Low Oxalate Group (TLO) on facebook and they are extremely helpful. I will be sharing additional resources/studies/practitioner feedback etc. but this will get you started.
A reminder that pain can have many root causes other than dietary oxalate issues (or in addition to oxalate issues): gluten issues, nightshades, low GABA, low serotonin, low endorphins, Lyme disease (bartonella can cause foot pain), fibromyalgia, low B12, heavy metals, mold toxicity, autoimmune conditions etc.
******************
Feel free to comment below – share your feedback and ask your questions. And do let me know if you’re interested in learning more about this topic and additional blog posts.
If you’re a practitioner who works with individuals with dietary oxalate issues I’d love to hear from you too.
Read all posts in this series:
- Coronavirus and vitamin C for immune support: new pain or more severe pain due to oxalate issues? (part 1)
- Oxalate crystal disease, dietary oxalates and pain: the research & questions (part 2)
- Vitamin C causes oxalate formation resulting in pain, anxiety, and insomnia (when there is a defect in ascorbic acid or oxalate metabolism)? (part 3)
- Willow’s survival story: Easter Lilies cause acute renal failure in cats and Peace Lilies cause oxalate issues (part 4)
- Waking in the night due to environmental toxins: impacts on the liver, gallbladder and fat digestion (making oxalate issues worse) (part 5)
I would love more info in Oxalates! Ever since reading your story about your foot pain I began to take note of symptoms related to eating the high oxalate foods. I absolutely love nuts! I love greens and so bummed about not being able to eat these foods! I still eat them and suffer especially at night
How do I get my greens in? What to snack on? More please! I am happy that you are researching this
And what is “dumping” that someone referred to?
I did not realize that high dose Vitamin C can cause the pain too. I take 1000-2000 mg a day – so I am going to try to reduce this to see if some pain issues subside
Thank you!
Shayndel
Glad to hear oxalate issues are on your radar and you’re interested in more information. What do you mean you suffer at night – also with foot pain? Please describe it. And can you share what form of vitamin C and is this more than you usually take or are you taking this for the first time because of immune support?
I can relate to having to give up “healthy” foods like greens and nuts as it’s taken me a number of years of fighting it too! But as I learn more I realize that it’s really not a good idea to continue to eat these foods and suffer because of possible more serious impacts on the bones, joints, heart, eyes, and skin https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3710657/ – I’ll be discussing this and other papers in future posts. The majority of studies state the progression to kidney disease but clinically we see many folks with pain caused by oxalates and with no kidney disease.
There are also nutrients that help and approaches like improving gut health and fat malabsorption, addressing mold toxicity and other factors that may allow more medium-oxalate foods to be incorporated.
I was taking 500/1000 mg and increased during this COVID 19 time and when I had symptoms
The night pain is in my hood and legs and sometimes foot
I have been eating a lot of chocolate
Of course! And I can feel it I. My kidney area when I drink some green powders
I am so frustrated as these are so good for so many things and now I guess I should get off of it
I have taken Dr Anna Cabeca’s might maca which seems ok but now I am not so sure!
Dr Andrew Saul is the Vitamin C man. He has a book and a website call: Doctor Yourself. I wrote and send him this article of Trudy Scott who I hold in High esteem. He sent me two links that says that it is not to do with Vitamin C. It is perhaps to do with lack of B vitamins or B Complex.
GrannyF
Yes Dr Andrew Saul and Orthomolecular Medicine News Service (he is their editor-in-chief) are steadfast in their conviction that there are no issues with vitamin C, saying it doesn’t cause kidney stones (I mention this in the blog above). As of right now, as much as I respect their work and until I learn more, I have a professional difference of opinion – there are mixed results in the research about kidney stones and vitamin C, and research that doesn’t fit with what we see clinically with dietary oxalates i.e. that systemic oxalate issues/pain can only occur when there is chronic kidney disease. I’ll be sharing links to research and articles in the follow-up blog, with additional information about some possible mechanisms.
But I do appreciate you sending this article to him – please do share the links he sent you. I had emailed Orthomolecular Medicine News Service and not heard back but will reach out to him directly once I have additional stories/cases to share and have gathered the research into a blog.
My functional Doc, who I saw in my telemed session, said to be careful of Oxalates. He later said don’t worry about them. I had never heard of Oxalates before and am trying to understand what are oxalates and do I need to be cautious of what I eat. I consume a large quantity of kale, a smaller amount of nuts, a new multi vit that includes Vit C, and my treat is a small square of 82% cacao or aquafava (the juice of garbanzo beans mixed with cacao powder) mousse a few times a week (2).
I have noticed lately that the ball of my left foot is burning at night and I have issues walking – thinking it is the callouses on my feet and the neuropathy from radiation and chemo for brain cancer. Could these symptoms be from Oxalates? I am on a limited diet now because of the tumor and this is going leave me with not a lot to eat
Jeannette
Everything you mention is a high-oxalate food. This a great resource to get started http://lowoxalate.info/ And don’t worry there are plenty of nutrient-dense low and medium-oxalate foods to enjoy!
I first learned about oxalates from my friend and colleague Julie Matthews (she helped me figure out my oxalate issue) and she has an excellent summary here, describing oxalates as “sharp crystals or crystalline structures with jagged edges that cause pain, irritation, and distress.” https://bioindividualnutrition.com/oxalates-their-influence-on-chronic-disease/
Hi Trudy
I had heard of oxelate but have never given it any thought regarding myself and vitamin C
I was diagnosed with methane gas sibo and I do take vitamin C I prefer the liposomal but can’t always get it Some months ago l had what I thought was a uti but even though I was tested severeral times I was told it was not am infection I was taking d Mannose for relief
Perhaps it’s the reason as I see the high oxelate foods you have listed I will now monitor it as it has been very uncomfortable from time to time
Thanks for this info Trudy. You are amazing !
Patricia
Thanks for sharing and please come back and let us know what you discover. This a great resource to get started with http://lowoxalate.info/
Trudy I am so grateful to see your blog on this. I think I had the Corona virus but since I was over 65 and no longer running a fever they would not test me. I was pretty sick but used my cpap machine almost around the clock, had a terrible cough and was taking 1000-2000 mg a day but the last three days I took 4000-6000 mg a day and almost all my symptoms stopped. But my pain has increased so much I cant stand it. And I didnt know I had an oxylate issue but surmised after reading an article on your blog about Curcurmin. I was taking huge doses of that for my arthritis but had to stop because of the pain. I have also been putting spinach in my smoothies with raspberries and craving chocolates no wonder Im in so much pain. I also have been taking this week collagen several times a day and do now remember you saying that also is an oxylate but if you take tryptophan that will calm you down? Which I had to do twice I got so hyper. But the collagen was so helpful for my allergies and hair loss. I have celiac and after doing a low carb no sugar diet it messed up my thyroid again and my nerves. So grateful Trudy for all your research and getting this info out to us.
Carol
Sorry to hear you were sick and were not able to be tested (I’m speechless that age had anything to do with it!) but pleased you’re doing better!
There is plenty of research on the benefits of vitamin C and it’s widely used with much success during serious illness and for sepsis. This paper, “An Update on Current Therapeutic Drugs Treating COVID-19” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7211915/, published just last month, discusses vitamin C (ascorbic acid) as a supporting agent, playing a role as a potent antioxidant, with benefits for immune health and as an antiviral against flu viruses. It also discusses an IV vitamin C coronavirus trial and high dosages currently being used in various hospitals for this virus. The authors do also say “no major side effects” which is very common to hear. For the majority (I think) there will be no major side-effects but for those with oxalate issues it is clearly problematic. One caveat is that there may be a place for short-term high-dose use during a healing crisis, even for someone with dietary oxalate issues. Unfortunately I don’t have an answer for this aspect yet and I’m hoping a vitamin C expert will contribute to the discussion or I’ll come across some research about this. I’ll be going more into this in future blog posts – as I said I have a “book” worth of info.
I will be sharing additional information on genetics, foods, how to reduce oxalates and more but based on the foods you mention you may want to look at this a great resource to get started http://lowoxalate.info/ And yes curcumin/turmeric is high oxalate but don’t worry there are plenty of nutrient-dense low and medium-oxalate foods to enjoy!
My collagen blog post addresses how it can lower serotonin and make you more anxious (https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/collagen-gelatin-lower-serotonin-increase-anxiety-depression/). If that’s the case tryptophan may counter the effects. But for some people it doesn’t impact serotonin but instead causes issues if you have an oxalate problem. It could be both too. I’m very much in favor of collagen if it’s providing benefits.
Wow this is very helpful. I too was unaware of Turmeric being high! Interesting about collagen. I do take tryptophan which I see may hep. Thank you.
Hi,
I’m really interested in this, have had joint pain,bone pain for many years.
Many diagnosis….Lupus, Graves …years and years of this.
Currently very bad foot pain and fatigue. I have had my genetics done, confused by diet.
I do take Liposal Vit C, I wasn’t connecting it to oxalates.
Really need info on the foods, the gene etc. I will look into Trudy’s website.
So very tired of trying to figure everything out.
Thanks for everyone’s comments.
Lori
Sorry to hear. How much liposomal C do you take and have you recently increased it? Is this more than you usually take or are you taking this for the first time? What is your typical diet?
I will be sharing additional information on genetics, foods, how to reduce oxalates and more. This a great resource to get started with http://lowoxalate.info/
Thanks Trudy!! I have been gluten, grain free, dairy free, nightshade free, sugar free lol for a long time, recently really started cutting out lectins but have not paid attention to oxalate’s. I have had neurological problems, thyroid and calcium issues…. do have Mthfr, Comt…. sounds like a lot but it’s been a lot of years trying to figure out diet…. I just switched from Pea protein powder to Hemp… not realizing nuts are high in oxalates… also berries in my shake, not good. I do take Chlorella which I think is fine but just added Spirulina? The liposamal C tested good for me by my therapist.
This site is so encouraging, thank you!! The joint, foot, back, neck pain is unbearable at times, hoping this is the missing link.
I’ve had problems with Vitamin C that I never realized could be oxalate related. I have lupus, so it may simply be overstimulating my immune system. I have tried it as ascorbate, with and without bioflavanoids, buffered and not buffered. In the amount of 2g/day, I experience a slow onset of joint pain and inflammation. After 3 days I have twinges in my knees and feel slightly under the weather. After a week I have joint pain and inflammation and moving a bit slower. After 10 days, pain has moved from mild to moderate, sometimes I’m crying from it, missing work, etc. Both times I have identified Vitamin C as the problem around the 10 day mark. The pain continues to increase for 2 days after I stop taking Vitamin C before slowly subsiding. I have the same reaction to garlic powder though, which is a low oxalate food. I have quite a few food sensitivities, but Vitamin C and garlic powder are the only ones with that specific reaction. I react to the other things within an hour to 2 days.
Alissa
Thanks for sharing your experiences, the forms and doses of vitamin C. In a recent Facebook chat with Susan Owens she said that it can take about 2 weeks for oxalates to build up and cause symptoms. I’ve personally experienced both. I had a slow build up when I trialed natural food based vitamin C recently and it was very obvious about 10 to 14 days in that it wasn’t going to be ok. I also get an immediate effect – within in 30 mins to 2 hours – with certain foods like carob. I think it may also relate to load and be cumulative.
However the fact that this happens only with vitamin C and garlic makes me wonder if it’s an oxalate issue. Do high oxalate foods cause pain issues too – but more quickly?
Hi Trudy. Thank you for not avoiding big problem.
Covid-19 thing messed up economy. But, do you know, that if you go deeper with Oxalate issues, to fast, it can mess up GDP and world economy to? Doctors know about Oxalates since end of 19th century. When Rockefeller school medicine started. Of course, oxalates are accumulating. Long big time. They are sharp crystals, negatively charged, which like to bind with positive charged heavy metals, iron to. Iron is stored in liver. Glycogen, vitamin K, fat are also stored there. Toxins to. Because of heavy metals and chemicals, liver is unable to produce right cholesterol for bile. Cholesterol which body isn’t recognizing and unable to use. Heavy metals act as catalyst and are hardening the fats. In industry, they use nickel, palladium and all other heavy metals to hydrogenise oils to solids. Margarine, anyone? Not just in artery, calcium or calcium free deposits are also stored in liver ducts. 2 000 meters loooong.
Filter( liver) is blocking them from making more damage in rest of body. If you have Oxalate issues,
unfortunately cleaning( detoxing) the liver from fat toxins can become near impossible, because crystals are acting as sand brake/paper. Liver don’t have much nerves, so pain of the liver is tiredness. Lowered capacity . Thru liver are going 5 liquids. Red blood, blu blood, lymph, blood from the portal vain and bile. Of course, doctors are still looking for cause of cancer. Clogged liver also means clogged lymph. Lymph can reverse flow direction( you can call me Scharlatan for this. I know what I am talking.) Why old Germans have saying: liver free, shoulder free? Dr Shoemaker( mold specialist ) fixed women shoulder pain with cholesteramine ( toxin binder), but still can’t explain what’s going on? You bind and escort toxins, so liver can produce healthy, so important bile, so your body can dissolve fats/toxic fats. Also, bile is greasing your motor, intestines, so you aren’t getting SIBO and perforations…. Now, we don’t want to go deeper?
The more you have leaky gut, the more you absorb Oxalates back.
https://eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2020-05/nlh-cdl050620.php
Renavive has been a helpful product for kidney stones and for oxalates. I have no connection with the company.
Melinda
Thanks for sharing. Have you used this personally with success? And to break up existing kidney stones and then prevent them? And did you find it also helps prevent the joint pain/bladder pain/ soft tissue pain when consuming medium and high-oxalate foods? or do you use it and still consume low oxalate foods? Are you using it with vitamin B6, calcium citrate, Epsom salts baths etc or just this product?
I know nothing about any issues I might have with oxalates, but I definitely have problems with citrus food and drink. I get UTI symptoms when I consume those. And after three weeks of taking Vitamin C, I began to have the same symptoms. The symptoms subsided within a couple of days when I stopped taking the vitamins. I don’t generally take Vit C supplements, but was doing so for immunity because of the virus.
I was taking 500 mg a day. It was a chewable I found at Kroger (ascorbic acid). That’s all I could find. I hadn’t thought about liposomal C. I once saw an herbalist who gave me liposomal C for a few months and I had no trouble with it at all.
I’m not aware of any kidney issues I have now. I did have bladder issues as a child. That’s when I was told to omit citrus from my diet. If GFR is on a standard lab panel, mine is always normal.
I’m confused, however, about the connection with oxalates. I thought citrus was supposed to help flush oxalates. Could I have a problem with citrus and oxalates at the same time?
Dj
Thanks for sharing about the vitamin C and citrus and your UTI symptoms. Interesting that liposomal vitamin C didn’t cause you issues – that form has been proposed as an option but some folks also have issues with it. Oranges are high oxalate (more here http://lowoxalate.info/recipes.html). And yes eGFR is on most standard lab panels
My 26 year old son with autism has suffered with oxalates for years. He would wake up and his eye would be swollen. MDs has no idea. Calcium citrate after all meals has been very helpful. Epsom salt baths as well. We eliminated beets, chard, rhubarb, and spinach only to maintain food variety but are careful because he also has high histamine. Do you know anything about the probiotic Oxalibacter and what promise that might hold?
Brenda
Thanks for sharing about your son. I know eye-poking in young non-verbal children with autism has long been connected to oxalates. It’s wonderful you made the connection and find calcium citrate after meals, Epsom salts baths and eliminating the very high oxalate foods help. May I ask how much calcium citrate helps and how often he has an Epsom salt bath?
I’m sure you’re familiar with Julie Matthews’ wonderful work in autism nutrition (she blogs about oxalates and autism here https://bioindividualnutrition.com/oxalates-and-autism-how-oxalates-can-cause-the-symptoms-and-underlying-conditions-we-see-in-autism/) and also Susan Owens’ work and study: “A potential pathogenic role of oxalate in autism” https://www.ejpn-journal.com/article/S1090-3798(11)00154-1/abstract. Julie learned a great deal about oxalates from Susan and I’m learning from both of them! Susan’s research found oxalate issues with no evidence of kidney stone disease, which supports what we see clinically with many who have dietary oxalate issues. However most of the research on hyperoxaluria (excessive urinary excretion of oxalate) states there is always kidney disease. I’m curious if you have tracked your son’s eGFR levels and would be willing to share?
I feel Oxalobacter formigenes is very promising but I believe it’s still not commercially available. There are a number of clinical trials in progress but most are focusing on Primary Hyperoxaluria. This is one looks promising but I have to wonder if the time-frame may be too compressed https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03752684? I also wonder if there is a place for fecal transplants.
I appreciate this important information about High dose vitamin C, and your efforts during these challenging times. Keep it up!
I was taking a lot of liposomal C and chew able C at work and a vitamin C ascorbic acid pill as well. I started experiencing pain in my feet and hands getting worse and worse. Nothing was making it better. I was not aware of any oxalate issue with me but have been told I have RA. So I will be laying off the C for awhile ………..glad I did not stock up!! Thank you for this email!!!
Wendy
May I ask how much of each and which products? How quickly did the pain start? Please do share how things go with you.
All this information is very interesting to me.
I’ve been taking wheat grass every day and green drinks with Swiss chard , cucumber, ginger, lemon. Usually I take 2oz of the wheat grass but for the last week it’s been 4oz
a day. Today I couldn’t do it which surprised me . I also eat a lot of nuts- walnuts, almonds ,pistachio nuts . I also eat spinach. I have to add I also take vit C .
Then today I read your article and I said WOW -my feet have been hurting me and especially my toes. Here I think I have a healthy diet but can what I am taking be causing my foot problems.
Miriam
For someone with new foot pain since adding extra vitamin C and adding new high oxalate foods or having a high oxalate dietary intake over time, it would be worth investigating. I have updated the blog about the importance of making gradual changes
I had a genopalate test and nothing was mentioned about oxalate. I was told my body does not process vitamin A correctly and I am deficient in D B6 and folic acid. I take supplements for this and also 3 to 6 grams of c a day as liposomal vitamin C and liposomal glutathione with two forms of algae. I do have a problem with my right knee locking up. I FEAR Coronavirus and I am 65. I do not think I will survive if I get it. I had one TIA 2 1/2 years ago AND I had the world’s WLRST Dr so I haven’t seen her in two years. I have to rely on supplements and what I read to survive.
Adelia
I do not see any checks for oxalates on the genopalate test – which is unfortunate. Keep in mind that pain can have other causes. It’s worth considering oxalates for someone if there is new pain since adding or increasing vitamin C.
I believe oxalates have been my problem for many years. I have listened to Sally K. Norton ‘s story concerning oxalates, and it could be my story as well. For many years I prided myself in my garden and eating tons of swish chard, spinach, sweet potatoes, kale etc..Yet I never felt well. Joint and leg pains, general muscle and pains throughout my body.My friends who were eating awful diets , felt well, and I did not. Fast forward to now being over 60, I have finally recognized my problem after many years of suffering. I have eliminated these high oxalate veggies I love and have definitely seen the difference. I always thought I had a uti. After testing doctors would say no. The one thing left that does irritate my bladder is vitamin c. I find I do not have the problem eating citrus . I feel sad when I think of all those painful years. Something that seemed so overwhelming, confusing and painful was actually something so simple to remedy. Doctors definitely do not have the answers. Even my alternative doctor would did not believe oxalates could be a problem. My hope is that maybe what I have learned can be of help to that one suffering person.
Thank you, I am feeling so hopeful hearing others who have suffered and found a way out.
I will listen to her story. Lori
Theresa
Thanks for sharing – so please you found this simple and yet powerful remedy for your years of pain. I know your story will give other readers here hope and encouragement. I know if can seem very daunting and overwhelming initially. Unfortunately there has not enough awareness among doctors (both conventional and functional) and even nutritionists, but things are changing.
Could you clarify your comment on vitamin C – it irritates your bladder but doesn’t cause the other pain you used to have? May I ask how much and what product/s you’ve tried? And if anything mitigates the symptoms other than not using it?
Thanks for mentioning Sally K. Norton as another wonderful oxalate resource. We met briefly last year and her story is incredible. I’ll be sharing more about her in future blogs too.
Really interesting article, thank you for posting. I am not aware I have an oxalate issue, but had regular utis over many years often with no sign of infection. I now have lupus which is pretty well managed but have developed a persistent pain in onè elbow over the last month. I have been taking Vit C supplements to support immune system at this time. Initially Liposomal and recently oral Ester C. I also had flue jab just over a month ago in the same arm, so I half wonder if that had triggered something. We do eat a lot of fresh greens that we grow and as gluten and dairy free use almond meal. I have also noticed a persistent stiffness in the end of my fingers over last month or 2. As I do get a reaction to nightshades which I occasionally have I put the discomfort down to that along with coming off steroids, but I am wondring if I should look at oxalates? By kindney function has been fine when tested
Helen
For someone with any foot pain since adding extra vitamin C and/or having a high oxalate dietary intake over time, it would be worth investigating (you do have a number of other variables). I have updated the blog about the importance of making gradual changes.
May I ask how much Liposomal C/oral Ester C and which brands? There is research that Ester C may be better tolerated and I’ve seen this to be the case with some folks
Oxalates have been a problem for me, off and on. The underlying cause or reason is unknown. What I can share is that when I started getting the Viome GI stool test done every 3 to 4 months, it immediately flagged when I was having oxalate issues–and when I am not. So, based on my Viome test results, I can either eat raspberries and spinach (two of my favorite foods) or know that I have to avoid them for awhile. When my Viome gut test shows a problem with oxalates, I have observed that this is when my kidneys feel “fatigued”, feels like I have a UTI and can be difficult to urinate (even though the urine test doesn’t show a UTI) and I am having to increase the amount of water that I drink in order to feel like my body is hydrated, because my kidneys feel like they are in overdrive.
I have “hacked my DNA”, so know that I have a problem with MTHFR, B12 and B6 so supplement with those regularly. I also have extreme sun sensitivity, so supplement with Vitamin D3 and K since I can’t get enough sun exposure. I am celiac, so gluten intolerant and have been eating GF for over 12 years now, but experience sporadic problems with SIBO and sporadic slow motility–which I suspect is caused by the undiagnosed celiac disease causing problems with my small intestine for so many years.
I do NOT have problem with taking Vitamin C supplements, but I typically only take 500 mg a day–and instead drink A LOT of lemon juice mixed with water during the day. I have a lemon tree, so I juice and freeze lemon juice twice a year when I get my lemon crop. I started with adding lemon juice, because genetic testing seemed to suggest that I might have cystinuria (a rare genetic disorder where the kidneys make “cystine stones”). The treatment for cystinuria is Vitamin C, but when I tried to take megadoses of Vitamin C, I would get diarrhea and feel really achy. After starting the daily lemon juice, my kidneys feel a lot better and I stopped having problems where I kept feeling like I needed to urinate, but couldn’t go. (Don’t try telling this to an MD or they just think you are a hypochondriac.) I don’t seem to have any problem with citrus in its natural form, so my suggestion would be to those who seem to have an intolerance to high doses of supplemental vitamin C, try adding 1/4 cup or lemon juice to whatever beverage you are drinking several times a day, and see if you can tolerate that better. (Its a bit tart at first, but it will grow on you.)
TJ
Thanks for sharing your interesting application of the Viome test. I have not heard of anyone doing this before. Please share what markers indicated oxalate issues.
You mention many factors that can predispose someone to oxalate issues: MTHFR, low B12, low B6, low Vitamin D/K, celiac disease, SIBO – so it good they are being addressed.
The dose seems to be a factor with those who are susceptible to oxalate issues. Susan Owens says no more than 250mg/day of any form. Some folks seem to tolerate 500mg/day. I love that you have a lemon tree! and it’s very likely the lemon juice may be helping (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4265710/)
I’m trying to figure out if the form is a factor for some people too. What form and what brand of vitamin C are you using?
So glad you are talking about oxylates. I have been asking many different health care providers about them and getting conflicting answers, so would love to hear more. I was told after an OAT test that they found oxylates. This was years ago and I do not remember the level. I am a complicated case because I was also diagnosed with chronic lyme, coinfections, and currently treating mold toxins which I never knew I had. I am currently in remission from tick borne illnesses but still get symptoms while I am binding and clearing out the mold toxins.
It has been a long 7 yr. battle and I do not want to take something that will cause more harm than good, but due to covid, I have been taking 3600 mg. of vit. C daily. I think I am ok for now as far as symptoms but maybe what I think is coming from mold may be oxylates? Should I stop taking the C?
Thank you, I desperately need the right guidance. I finally got somewhat healthy and do not want to decline out of fear of covid. Can I take glutathione, the master antioxidant instead or something to counteract the high Vit C intake? Will oxylates cause permanent damage or can I back down once i feel symptomatic? Any referrals or help would be much appreciated.
Lisa
I’m afraid I can’t share specifics via the blog. For someone with any new symptoms since adding extra vitamin C and/or having a high oxalate dietary intake over time, it would be worth investigating. I have updated the blog about the importance of making gradual changes.
Oxalates typically cause damage over time and many people use the trial and error approach to see what works for them. Nutrients like vitamin B6, calcium citrate etc and addressing gut etc may all allow higher doses (more on that in the next few blogs – too much to cover here).
I’m trying to figure out if the form is a factor for some people too. What form and what brand of vitamin C are you using? And what symptoms?
Hi, I started taking 1200 mg. a proprietary liposomal Vit. C complex from sunflower lecithin, cetyl ascorbate, phosphatidylcholine , ascorbyl oleate, and finally ascorbyl palmitate. I think just to avoid possible trouble in health I might just go down to 1200 mg. daily instead of 3600 mg. daily. I have occasional symptoms of achy crampy pain and random pain in different body parts, but I am currently treating for mold toxins so it is hard to tell if it coming from that. Most days I feel better than I have in years, so I do not want to ruin that. I do have oxylate issues but never stuck to a low oxylate diet, so not sure how much of an issue it really is with me despite it showing up in the OAT test? Wish I can get a solid answer, but many different opinions out there with vit. C usage and oxylates!
So sad to hear so many people have difficulty with oxalates! We are all different. Thank goodness this info exists so we may have a course of action.
It seems since Vitamin C flushes out, the oxalate problem might be avoided by drinking lots of liquids. I take high doses of C, and I do drink a lot. Dr. A drew Saul and Dr. Thomas E. Levy say C is non-toxic, but then we are right back to the we are all different idea.
Thanks for making this info available, Trudy!
Jill
Being well hydrated is one key factor. As I mention in the blog Dr Andrew Saul and Orthomolecular Medicine News Service (he is their editor-in-chief) are steadfast in their conviction that there are no issues with vitamin C, saying it doesn’t cause kidney stones. As of right now, as much as I respect their work and until I learn more, I have a professional difference of opinion – there are mixed results in the research about kidney stones and vitamin C, and research that doesn’t fit with what we see clinically with dietary oxalates i.e. that systemic oxalate issues/pain can only occur when there is chronic kidney disease. I’ll be sharing links to research and articles in the follow-up blog, with additional information about some possible mechanisms.
I also plan to reach out to him directly once I have additional stories/cases to share and have gathered the research into a blog. I will check out the work of Dr Levy too.
I’ve been suffering from more than usual pain, inflammation in my bladder and gut, pain at times in my joints and bones as well. In reading these other comments I see a lot of similarities, Josefin’s story in particular, almost identical to my experience, since taking more than usual amounts of Vit. C in capsule form, and I’ve ate several oranges, tangelos in past two weeks. I have had bowel issues that were cleared up before this regime of Vit. C. It’s very miserable.
Diane
For someone with any new pain symptoms since adding extra vitamin C and/or having a high oxalate dietary intake over time, it would be worth investigating. I have updated the blog about the importance of making gradual changes.
I’m trying to figure out if the dose and form is a factor for some people too. How much compared to what you used in the past, what form and what brand of vitamin C are you using?
I may have had problems with Vitamin C, but I was so stubborn that it never occurred to me that Vitamin C could be the problem. I did have many of the issues mentioned above, but I had not connected the dots. Pain in hips, kidney dysfunction eventually, after eating bone broth unknowingly cooked at too low a temperature for months, interstitial cystitis really bad, with terrible urges and unable to hold the urine. By listening to telesummits I recognized the issues as resolvable, but never had these doctors mentioned Vitamin C as being the cause.
So I have to relate that now I do take 18 to 36 grams a day with no pain, and lots of protection from Covid-19, which it does appear that I got, based on minute symptom matches with telesummit doctor lists. This is what I do, and how I improved over time. I take Vitamin B6 once every day. I take Niacin (approx 200 mg) every single time I take 6-1/4 gm powdered Vitamin C as ascorbic acid in water. I take Concentrace liquid minerals and Concentrace ionic Magnesium every single time I take that dose of Vitamin C in water, as well as 100 mg of NAC (lots of pills & minerals with Vitamin C every single time).
The thing that began to resolve my issues was realizing that I was severely plagued with oxalate toxicity and histamine sensitivity as well. I got a good deal of relief from starting a relatively low oxalate and low histamine diet. But what really resolved the joint / muscle pain and energy issues was realizing that I had all the symptoms of MAST Cell Activation Syndrome, and that Quercetin is a specific for that; it can be tolerated by many people suffering from MCAS. Once I took that, the interstitial cystitis along with the joint and muscle pain vanished, and for the most part (unless some other stress triggers me – like the various side effects of having had Covid-19), I feel much, much less pain, relatively little bladder dysfunction, my brain functions to where I can begin to help others rather than just exist in a flu-like flump.
I suppose it is because I take NAC, Niacin, Quercetin as well as Proline and Lysine (the latter two recommended by Vitamin C Foundation) every single time I take Vitamin C, I now feel much much better when I do take it in larger quantities and more regularly (that is, not forgetting because I feel so good).
I am 77 years old and I do credit Vitamin C for pulling me through this experience with Covid-19, which I must say was quite scary. I also have to say that yes, I do still awaken every couple of hours during sleep time, but being under the impression that I’m being awakened to take yet another dose of Vitamin C, I go through that entire routine mentioned above (after a bathroom visit), and promptly go right back to sleep after taking it. So I am able to sleep on and off like that for 12 hours, if I wish, and I do wish, because of the benefits of good sleep. (I’m sorry that I never related the issues that I had, which are similar to what other people here are resolving by taking less Vitamin C, to potentially having been caused by the massive amounts of Vitamin C I was taking.)
I am mentioning how I got free from those issues in case it’s of any help to people out there. Right now I’m learning to eat nutrient-dense veggies low in oxalates and histamines, by combining Joel Fuhrman’s list (from his book, The End of Diabetes), with staying as low oxalate and low histamine as I can tolerate. My impression is that I don’t have to stay as strictly low oxalate-low histamine as some people do because I can take so gosh darn much Vitamin C. Quercetin is a must, though.
Nancy
So glad to hear you recovered from coronavirus! Thanks for sharing your vitamin C protocol and interesting combination of supporting supplements. Your results offer hope!
I assume the combination and doses for each person would differ. I’m aware some people do well with vitamin B6 and it doesn’t help others. Just confirming – you are not taking any calcium citrate or other form of citrate, or any source of sulfur like Epsom salts or MSM or chondroitin sulfate?
It would be ideal if you could sleep through the night – sleep is so healing.
Trudy thanks so much for this topic. We tend to forget about bio-individuality and how one persons medicine cans be poison to another. I also appreciate that you approach the topic with candor and openness. Very refreshing in these times of polarity!
I have high oxalates and my doctor advised me to minimize high oxalate foods, but with my other dietary restrictions that is challenging. I don’t seem to have the symptoms described by others, perhaps my levels aren’t as high. I have not had issues with 1-2 grams of ascorbic acid I’ve been taking recently, but I had bad experiences with IV treatments including high dose C. Primarily fatigue, but I also developed a severe case of the flu following 3 months of IV infusions recommenced by my doc which seems counter to what you would expect!
I asked my doctor (who is a functional medicine doc) if vit C could impact my oxalate levels and he said (rather emphatically) “No”.
I look forward to hearing more, as I have struggled to get good information beyond the standard concerns about kidney stones, which seem to be just a subset of potential concerns.
Pat
Thanks for sharing your results with vitamin C. Can you share what lab markers promoted your doctor’s advice about high oxalate foods?
You will get mixed responses from practitioners as there are mixed results in the research about kidney stones and vitamin C, and research that doesn’t fit with what we see clinically with dietary oxalates i.e. that systemic oxalate issues/pain can only occur when there is chronic kidney disease. I’ll be sharing links to research and articles in the follow-up blog, with additional information about some possible mechanisms.
Hi Trudy, my oxalate results came from the Great Plains OAT lab results, measuring 236 on my last lab. Interestingly, my score the year before that was 121, so the diet my doctor put me on increased my oxalates!
Pat
I’m afraid that doesn’t tell me which marker you’re referring to. All of these markers on the Great Plains Lab organic acids test (OAT) are used when looking for possible oxalate issues: Oxalic acid, Glycolic acid (glycolate), Glyceric acid (glycerate), Arabinose (a yeast/candida marker) Ascorbic acid (ascorbate, vitamin C), Pyridoxic acid (marker of vitamin B6 status), Furandicarboxylic acid and hydroxy-methylfuroic acid (markers for fungi such as Aspergillus), and markers of bacterial imbalance
Please also share how your diet changed
“We tend to forget about bio-individuality…” ? Bio-individuals should fight together for clean water, air, soil, ether…. . I know, I know…..sound socialistic? And to busy, trying to find solutions for your problems?
Because: Number of industrial chemicals being produced globally grossly underestimated
https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/number-of-industrial-chemicals-being-produced-globally-grossly-underestimated/4011207.article
Why make simple, when you can make complicated? Another good one: in muddy water is profit.
I discovered oxalate toxicity exactly because of high vitamin C. I was in a mercury detox group and one of the recommended supplements is high doses of vitamin C. Because I had discovered that I had suddenly become histamine intolerant a few months before, I was writing down every supplement, food, and symptom I had. This proved essential to find the solution.
I began taking 4-6 grams of Perque vitamin C (a really high-quality, fully reduced brand) a day. I noticed I started having pain in my left knee (I couldn’t bend it comfortably, especially pigeon pose in yoga class) and my sinuses hurt (not in a typical sinus pain way, but the mucous seemed really hard and stuck). Looking back, it was about 2-3 weeks after starting vitamin C.
I was on this dose for about 14 months and tried numerous things to track down what was going on. My best guess was vitamin C, but I didn’t know how that could be causing pain so I kept looking. The pain didn’t hold me back or prevent me from exercising, but it was a puzzle to me. A few people on the detox group mentioned oxalates and someone finally mentioned vitamin C. I then tracked down the Trying Low Oxalates Yahoo group (it’s now on Groups.io) and the Trying Low Oxalates Facebook group.
After voraciously reading the science behind oxalates and high oxalate foods and supplements, I decided to cut down my vitamin C first. As recommended by the group, I did so slowly. Within 2 weeks, I had classic symptoms of oxalate “dumping,” where the stores of oxalate in your body start being released. I would blow my nose in the morning and I had “painful” mucous. It was hard and jagged and hurt coming out. My knee pain was gone in about 3 weeks.
The most important thing I learned on the Trying Low Oxalate groups are that oxalates are in a class by themselves. They are a toxin for everyone, unlike lectins, histamines, salicylates, or the like. The body has a mechanism to break them down (via special type of bacteria in the gut). If your bacteria are gone (e.g., you’ve taken antibiotics) or you are B6 or biotin deficient (e.g., a significant stressor or illness), you will start to store it in your tissues. Some foods, such as spinach is so high in oxalate, even healthy, never-been-on-antibiotic folks are at risk of damaging their various tissues. Oxalate is also tied to yeast problems – meaning that if you address the oxalate in your diet and supplements, you will often eliminate candida.
Heidi
Thanks for sharing your detailed account of your vitamin C experience and the dumping. Did you/do you have issues with medium and high oxalate foods too? And can you tolerate any vitamin C now and if yes what dose?
And yes all those factors you mention (and some others like low vitamin D, high copper, mold toxicity etc) set us up for oxalate issues. I’ll be going into all of this in future blogs
Hi Trudy, It’s an odd thing to be excited about, but I am so glad that you have ‘exposed’ if you like, what high oxalates can do to some peoples’ systems. So, the question I ask myself is why doesn’t everyone suffer from a reaction of high oxilate foods? I’m thinking there’s other health issues going on, so susceptibility must play a role? I had an OAT test done as organised by my Naturopath about a year ago, which showed, amongst other things, high oxalate levels. Great Plains who performed the OAT test provided a list of low, medium and high oxilate foods. I went straight to the low oxilate foods as I had passed a tiny kidney stone. Stayed on low oxilate for a period of three months, included a home made citrate drink, ascorbic acid–>liposomal C, adding calcium via food. My GP’s blood testing came back with high PTH levels (parathyroid), and low calcium. After the three month period my PTH levels had come right back to normal and calcium came back as increased to a level I was happy with. Have included mid to high oxilate foods until recently. Presently watching the high intake carefully.
In addition I have been having, over the past 2years approximately, Vitamin C Infusions 15ml and more recently 30ml. I find the results amazing! After the first infusion I was able to stop using asthma sprays. There’s a method of IV called the push method which delivers the Vit C from a vial which is administered manually. I found this method quite distressing as the C passed through my body way too quickly and caused pain in the right kidney region. Please note that this response occurred prior to passing the stone. I now enjoy having the C IV via drip around every 4-6 weeks, more if I could afford it. I do need addition C from food and am now looking at Camu Camu. The Vit C works well with the auto immune suppressant medication. All the very best to everyone on these journeys, and thank you again Trudy. Cheers, Rose.
Rose
Glad this is of interest! I’ll be going deeper into some of the causes and solutions in a future post (like the microbiome, leaky gut, gluten, vitamin D, calcium issues, fat malabsorption, genetics and more).
Your turnaround is amazing. So interesting about low calcium and high PTH levels and that you were able to turn things around – and use liposomal C at the same time! And could add back medium and high oxalate foods now. And also use IV vitamin C.
I’m curious which oxalate markers on the OAT test showed high? Do you know your eGFR too and did you doctor look at other kidney markers since you passed a stone?
May I ask how much liposmal C you used in the 3 month period and what you included in the home made citrate drink?
(and no problem I got rid of the duplicate comments and fixed the funky editing)
I would be so thankful if you took it upon you to dig deeper into this! It is such a complex area.
Organic acids tests show that I am very low in vitamin c so it would be good if I could take higher doses of it, but it does not work as it is now.
My nutritional therapist had a theory, or had seen some research (not sure), that if you have very much heavy metals in your body it would make vitamin c to, to a greater extent, take the route torwards becoming oxalic acid when it is broken down. I have a lot of heavy metals and toxins so that would fit my case at least.
Josefin
Yes metals may be a factor. I’ve added questions 9) to 19) if you’d like to tackle those
Judy,
I’m so glad I saw this post!! At the beginning of April I started taking 1000mg of vitamin C as L-Ascorbic Acid, in addition to my MVI which has 250mg ascorbic acid. I have had so much systemic muscular pain and stiffness I can barely move! I have also gained 7lbs…which is my body’s way of dealing with “invaders” and inflammation. I have never had an issue with oxalates prior to this. I’m going to stop taking it immediately. Should I take a B6 and calcium citrate to help dissipate the effects of the oxalate reaction more quickly? What is a good dose to start? Thanks!
Omg. I’m so embarrassed…not sure why my phone changed Trudy to Judy??? Haha
Kasey
Thanks for sharing. Most individuals do well with the addition of calcium citrate and some benefit from vitamin B6. Some just reduce their oxalate intake and/or vitamin C intake and their symptoms resolve. Please keep us posted on how you’re doing
Hi Trudy-
This conversation is right in line with my current experience. Late last fall I had a couple of sessions with oxalate guru Sally K Norton. I came across the oxalate issue last August/September (2019). Long story short (for now) – after following Sally’s advice of (among many other things) severely limiting vitamin C, I began to wonder if that wasn’t the right thing for me, all the while struggling with brutal, unrelenting oxalate dumping. I decided to see what would happen with a fairly high dose regimen of vitamin C (I’m also dealing with chronic Epstein Barr/CFS and wondered if the C might help). I knew that the glyoxylate pathway could be coaxed away from ascorbate production with our old friend vitamin B6, so I went for it. And much to my surprise, my symptoms got a bit better. I was sleeping a little better, while still having signs that I was dumping oxalates (mostly lots of cloudy urine). I’ve been doing this, taking 13.5 grams of sodium ascorbate or more daily (ascorbic acid mixed with 1/2 as much baking soda in water sipped throughout the day) for 45 days and continue to dump oxalates but with somewhat less discomfort. I have no indication that I’m making my oxalate situation worse, though I guess I don’t know for sure.
I’m going to have to cut this short for now. It’s getting late, and I’m pretty sleep deprived. I’ll try to put together a little more on this tomorrow. And, by the way, I’m fairly sure that I have pyroluria as well.
Blessings to you for all that you do,
Dana
Las Cruces, New Mexico
Dana
Thanks for sharing and yes vitamin B6 does help in some folks – how much helps you? The sipping through the day is interesting (someone else just told me that works for her) and mixed with 1/2 as much baking soda.
Just confirming – you are not taking any calcium citrate or other form of citrate, or lemon juice or any source of sulfur like Epsom salts or MSM or chondroitin sulfate?
Thanks for mentioning Sally K. Norton as another wonderful oxalate resource. We met briefly last year and her story is incredible. I’ll be sharing more about her work in future blogs too.
Trudy-
I do take calcium citrate (150 mg x 3), magnesium citrate (750 mg divided into 3 meals), and I usually take the juice of 1/2 to 1 lemon daily, all of which I was doing before starting on the vitamin C. I’ve also been taking biotin for years (5 mg/day). I do not take MSM, chondroitin sulfate, nor do I do Epsom salts baths. Oxalates have been a problem for at least 10 years, most probably much longer.
I am currently taking 300 mg pyridoxine hcl plus 50 mg P5P and another 33 mg P5P in a multi B. In the past, I have varied the amount of b6 quite a bit but only very recently started P5P. Also taking 200 mg thiamine as Allithiamine, Lipothiamine, and benfotiamine. B multi is AOR Advanced b complex (recommended by Sally Norton) 1 cap per day.
The improvements I noticed when I started vitamin C have mostly reversed with one exception. A couple of weeks after I started the carnivore diet (last August), I started noticing oxalate dumping symptoms, one of which was heart palpitations. I had had these before but only occasionally. Soon after starting the C in early April, the palpitations decreased by 90%, which was a welcome relief. The other thing that helps palps for me is taurine.
I’m not aware of kidney problems, though I haven’t done any in depth testing. Haven’t had an OAT test lately.
I definitely have more that 15 symptoms from the pyroluria questionnaire.
I do have significant snps in the glyoxylate pathway.
Have gluten sensitivity (genetic) but not Celiac. Don’t eat any gluten. Probably leaky gut. Very likely fat malabsorption. Mold sensitivity (genetic) but I don’t think it’s an issue at present. High serum iron but ferritin around 80.
Viome test – very low diversity. No good probiotics though I take them from time to time. I’ve also tested positive for methane SIBO in the past (probably 5 or so years ago) though I never really had any obvious digestive symptoms other than a slight tendency to constipation.
Vitamin d 50-60 at last test. Have been taking 10,000 to 20,000 ongoing (including before COVID). I have also been taking Carlson vitamin K2 (Mk4) 5 mg 2 per day for many years.
I almost always have high MCV (above 100) in a blood test. I have chronic fatigue, very high IGG and IGM antibodies to Epstein Barr virus, borderline homocysteine of 10, worst symptoms are fatigue/low vitality, moderately severe insomnia, severe exercise intolerance, leg weakness, plus many on the pyroluria list. I’m off carnivore at the moment eating low oxalate and low carb, no grain, no sugar, mostly no fruit.
The only medications I take – 60 mg desiccated thyroid and low dose Naltrexone (4 mg). Plus LOTS of supplements.
At this point, having read through this blog, I have decided to abandon the vitamin C experiment (decreasing gradually, of course). I’m now taking 1000 mg sodium acorbate capsules and went from 13.5 grams (powder in water) yesterday to 8 grams in capsules today. I have noticed a little more pain lately, including some shooting pains in my feet, and the improvement with insomnia I noticed initially is now gone. My sleep improved for the first 2 or 3 weeks then gradually went back to baseline. I’m certainly hoping the palpitations don’t come back. They really made my already bad sleep worse.
Dana
Dana
Thanks for sharing all this additional information which is very helpful for starting to see patterns so we can hopefully figure this out. Please keep us posted on how you do.
Just so you know, Susan Owens of TLO/Trying Low Oxalates doesn’t recommend more than 250mg per day of any form. I’ll be sharing more on forms of C and what various experts and practitioners recommend in future blogs.
TEST IMPLICATIONS FOR YEAST AND HEAVY METALS WILLIAM SHAW, PH.D.
What are Oxalates?
‘Oxalate and its acid form oxalic acid are organic acids that are primarily from three sources: the diet, from fungus such as Aspergillus, Penicillium, and possibly Candida (1-9), and also from human metabolism (10).’
Hi all, above is the first paragraph taken from The Great Plains website, and comes under the heading of ‘Autism Therapy.’ In short, it highlights the various possible root causes or sources of high Oxilate readings. It seems that high oxilate readings, don’t exist on their own. I guess that’s what I was trying to say earlier, but others have said it for me, and Trudy you’ve spoken about other issues for people in your opening article, eg gut and so forth! Amazing, thank you again. Yes, my testing showed a candida overgrowth, and I have gut issues as well, with some mould levels. I’ve put lots of work into becoming well and shall continue to do so until it’s done! Rose.
Rose
Yes you’re correct. I’ve added questions 9) to 19) if you’d like to tackle those
Hi Trudy and everyone who has commented!!
This is truly a revelation for me after years of pain and suffering.
I am wondering Trudy if you have linked the gene that is most prevalent in the oxalate issue? AGXT2?
I have my report from MTHFR support and am trying to link this so my kids can look at their diet.
I have had many years of JawBone necrosis, now osteoporosis, Graves, Lupus, joint pain, foot pain,vulva, anxitey, panic even ECT treatmens etc….
Am changing over to low oxalate, moving too carnivore diet, slowly.
I know the detox is going to be hard and possibly painful but what a relief to moving forward in to health and healing the body and brain! Finally maybe a solution.
Regards, Lori
Lori
I’m sorry to hear about all your issues. Yes this is one of many genes that may play a role – sulfate, vitamin D and serotonin genes may be a factor too. I’ll be going into genes and the many other possible predisposing factors in future blog posts. Please do keep us posted on how you do changing to a low oxalate diet. And yes slow is key. Susan Owen’s TLO group is excellent for resources and support.
I listened to one Dr Klinghardt seminar. He “complained” about geoingenering ( spraying our sky with toxic substances to cool atmosphere, so people can still “ enjoy” big guzzlers, without giving it second thought. Economy good, everything good?). Myself, I took pictures of multiple black droppings, ending just before downtown of big city. Newer saw that before, and I saw plenty. Pretty much fast coming down. In 5 minutes lost much of altitude. 18 hours later, snow in midwest. Dr Klinghardt said that he se only one positive in Global Warming, is that vegetables outside ore now “ crazy” green.
They produce more chlorophyll to make same with less light. And he commented that doctors are finding now more Oxalates in tests. And that nobody is asking, why plants produce more crystals?
Vegetables under more and more attacks?
Ok, we know now more about Oxalates and testings are more available. Not thanks to school medicine doctors. Veggies use crystals for defense of predators, a specially when seeds aren’t ripe. When ripe, Oxalates levels are dropping fast. Our non-farmer productions, like to pluck green tomatoes and ripe them with gas in closed containers. All in name of mighty petro-dollars. No enzymes, no minerals, loaded with chemicals and more Oxalates then ever? Not only dead food, but “ killer food”?
Marinko
This is the first I’ve heard about plants possibly being higher in oxalates than in the past. I’ll dig further to try and find sources but if you have any research links supporting this please do share. If this is true then it’s yet another contributing factor to consider.
I’ve been taking vitamin C a long time in several forms and at varying doses, most recently liposomal. Can’t tolerate ascorbic acid at all. I recently increased my intake of liposomal and added non acidic Ester C to help with covid and ended up with increased body pain, especially in right wrist and very painful burning bladder/IC which is only slowly starting to go away after 4 days. I stopped Vit C to help and added Prelief, d mannose and slippery elm. I too have a lump on my right palm near my finger. Interesting. Any suggestions what we could take instead? I bought camu camu but nervous with even that now. I may retry the Ester C as it’s non acidic and I’d previously tolerated it. Liposomal is perhaps too powerful for me and especially in higher doses
Nicola
Thanks for sharing. I’ll be sharing more about all the forms in a follow-up blog but so far the feedback is that all forms can impact some folks. The dose may be a factor for many too. Susan Owens of TLO/Trying Low Oxalates doesn’t recommend more than 250mg per day of any form. The only way to really know if it is vitamin C is a trial adding it with no other changes in diet or other supps and then stopping vitamin C with no other changes in diet or supps.
Please do share what doses of the various forms you’ve used? And if you have feedback on any of the other questions posed that would help too. Specifics are helpful for us to see patterns and figure this out.
So glad I found this article, just when I needed it. Trudy, you’ve quite possibly addressed a very real problem for me that suddenly cropped up after I started taking larger doses of Vitamin C. Like so many others, I read many reports about supplements to increase immunity during the pandemic — and Vitamin C kept showing up in articles online. So I began taking up to 3,000mg daily (maybe more sometimes) in divided doses throughout the day. (I also had been battling a candida infection, and figured the extra “C” would benefit that too.)
Suddenly, around Easter last month, I began having stiff lower back in the mornings, and pain in my right hip (which had been replaced many years ago due to arthritis). The pain and stiffness — worse in the mornings –felt like my old battles with osteoarthritis had returned. I blamed the problem on stress and working more at my desk at home during the lockdown. I called the doctor and was prescribed a muscle relaxant that didn’t help much and made me too groggy. I also went to see my hip surgeon to make sure I hadn’t displaced the artificial hip joint in some way.
Then I stumbled on your article while reading about collagen supplements — which I had been taking for my arthritis pain. (Those collagen capsules, sadly, were causing heart palpitations and feelings of anxiety, which was pointed out in your article on that topic.) I also found your article here — and BINGO! — it all made sense.
So I stopped taking both the collagen and the Vitamin C about 3 days ago. Gradually, my hip and back pain/stiffness have improved! I also feel less anxious, thanks to stopping the collagen. Thanks so much for your incredibly helpful work here.
Cindy
Thanks for sharing your feedback here – so glad you found the solution for the pain/stiffness was stopping vitamin C and anxiety/heart palpitations was stopping collagen. Interestingly collagen is also source of oxalates so for someone with oxalate issues it can trigger increased pain as well as reducing serotonin.
You don’t mention dietary oxalates – are they an issue for you or was it just the vitamin C and collagen changes?
To me, based on what I am reading here, no offense intended, but you don’t really understand the chemistry behind vitamin C.
Vitamin C does NOT cause oxalic acid to build up ion tissue. It chelates the minerals bound to the oxalate crystals and allows for the removal of oxalate through the kidneys. Vitamin C is notorious as being a pain-killer, and there are dozens if not hundreds of papers on vitamin C ending pain in hundreds of thousands, millions even, of people. Cathcart used it orally in High Doses for AIDS patients, Klenner cured polio in 60/60 patients, Riordan used it for cancer and heart disease, and countless others used vitamin C to cure literally every single disease known to man. Why didn’t ANY of those patients experience any new pain or oxalate issues? Cathcart used upwards of 200 grams DAILY in oral vitamin C. No kidney stones. No oxalates. No pain.
What you are talking about here is very specious science and doesn’t line up with 100 years of scientific literature. And one of the symptoms of scurvy is extreme joint and ligament pain. I know because I had scurvy. I know that vitamin C ends pain because I am an extreme arthritic and the ONLY thing that fixes my own issues is vitamin C. My mother, most of my patients, every single person has less pain, less inflammation, and I even have test reports that prove that Vitamin C and Oxalate levels do NOT correlate with each other. The levels have no consistency whatsoever.
And trying to make a case out of vitamin C products from kroeger and having patients send you anecdotal information with the suggestion that it “could” be due to oxalates via vitamin C is just flat out bad science. I am sorry to say this, but there is no biochemical pathway for vitamin C to cause Oxalate crystal formation IN tissue. This is because Vitamin C forms a stronger bond to Calcium and Magnesium, the two most common bonded minerals in oxalate crystals in the human body. The bond between oxalaic acid and lead, mercury, and aluminum is far stronger, and Vitamin C helps break down these bonds and chelates heavy metals for their removal by the kidneys. So, while Oxalic acid is the most acidic organic acid, Vitamin C competes with it for binding to minerals. This is biochemistry, not anecdotal accounts.
And why are you blaming the one nutrient that is involved in literally every chemical reaction in the body? A nutrient that animals, except for 3 or 4, produce in massive amounts in their liver? Why aren’t they riddled with oxalic acid crystals and why aren’t they in constant pain? How is it that the common house cat produces absolutely astronomical amounts of vitamin C and doesn’t have any pain or oxalate as a result? It isn’t due to any complex biological advantage. It is because Vitamin C does NOT cause the build up of oxalate in tissue.
Then, what can we blame?
Candida.
Candida produces large amounts of oxalic acid. I have found in my clinical practice that it does this as a defense mechanism. Fungus and mold does the same thing. It produces Oxalic acid to weaken the host and to break down host defenses. IF there is any production of oxalate from vitamin C, it is miniscule and cannot be measured in testing, BUT Candida sourced Oxalate is very much detectable and arabinose and citrimalic and tartaric acid levels directly correlate to oxlatic acid levels in samples.
Vitamin C is absolute DEATH to fungus, and I have the evidence to prove this which will be published this year. The vitamin C is attacking the yeast or fungal organisms, as is the immune system that is now “armed” due to vitamin C, and the effect your readers here are experiencing is a Herxheimer reaction, and pain, malaise, and similar symptoms are always part of that reaction. Vitamin C is doing its job, but the issue is fungus. A funugs such as Candida or Aspergillus will produce a biofilm, which is resistant to vitamin C . The biofilm has to be broken down in order for vitamin C to work as an antifungal and kill the pathogens protected by the biofilm.
I can go on and on. But this “hit job” I have been seeing on vitamin C lately is just flat out dangerous. No one seems to think that there is something else going on with oxalate, and the fact that molds, fungi, and yeasts ALL make oxalate when infecting a host, in large amounts, mind you, seems to be eluding everyone in this industry…except the experts on Vitamin C.
I really think that you are setting this up for vitamin C to be unfairly and unscientifically blamed for something that it, on a biochemical level, actually helps with. And I have worked with many, many people, and there is no single nutrient that has had a more profound effect on my patients, and people like Dr Andrew Saul, Tom Level MD, Nina Mirikova PhD, and many others can back me up on. Even Dr Richard Cheng and Dr Mao in China are using High Dose vitamin C to treat “COVID”.
Time to find a new suspect. This has gotten out-of-hand. Your patients are sick with sub-clinical scurvy.
The research is very compelling, I agree. That’s what prompted me to take big doses to “boost immunity” because it’s so “safe.” However, based on the bell curve and bio individuality of each persons unique bio chemistry, the research is not 100% accurate for every person. For me, when I took high doses, it felt like I was dying and threw my entire system out of whack. Stopped taking it and everything is returning back to normal…how do you explain that? There needs to be a discussion about the possible side effects of too much vitamin C…it’s actually a real thing and research is usually many years behind… there are definite holes in the research.
Here’s an article on supplements that can cause Renal Failure….Vitamin C is on the list! (Along with many other supplements that are taken often for cleanses).
A Review of Dietary Supplement–Induced Renal Dysfunction
https://cjasn.asnjournals.org/content/2/4/757.full
“Vitamin C is metabolized to several byproducts, including oxalate, before elimination via filtration and tubular reabsorption (44). Multiple episodes of oxalosis from vitamin C supplementation have been reported (45–53). In all cases, the administration of high-dosage vitamin C (nearly 60 g/d) resulted in extensive oxalate deposition in the renal tubules with associated ATN. These cases of renal failure improved after HD and/or supportive care (45–53).“
By the way, I have zero pre existing kidney dysfunction/disease/ailments, etc. After my terrible experience with mildly high doses of Vit C, I am SO careful of what I put in my body and reverting back to mind/body/food as medicine & just the essentials needed for my genetics and current health.
Michael
Thanks for taking the time to comment and share your insights. I value all feedback and feel it stimulates discussion and learning.
I’d like to direct you to this paper: Ascorbic Acid Intake and Oxalate Synthesis https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4946963/ for an excellent overview. I’d like to highlight this statement: “Despite over half a century of research on the relationship between ascorbic acid (AA; also known as vitamin C) intake and calcium oxalate stone disease the nature of this association is still blurred.”
I am curious if you have worked with patients/clients who have pain and mood symptoms caused by eating medium and high-oxalate foods? And are just disputing the vitamin C-oxalate connection?
I do agree with the candida/mold feedback as one possible source of oxalate production. Others may include low vitamin B6, low calcium, poor bile quality/fat malabsorption, dysbiosis, genetics and dietary intake, and vitamin C.
I have personal experience with the pain caused by dietary oxalates (chocolate, nuts, carob, eggplant, kiwi etc). The pain caused by vitamin C intake mirrors this pain and it’s very severe pain that I would describe as hot-coals-and-shards-of-glass pain. And it abates when I lower my oxalate intake and use vitamin B6, calcium citrate, Epsom salt’s baths etc (all documented in the research). Based on the descriptions I read about scurvy this is not the same as the pain and is not the same as a candida herxheimer reaction (which I have experienced).
Let’s assume the pain folks report is as you say – only due to candida/mold/fungus. If this is true then I feel there should be a precaution when recommending vitamin C to say beware of the pain side-effects if you have candida/mold/fungus. No-one says this.
I am not discounting all the research and amazing benefits of vitamin C and value it as a nutrient but am simply saying it’s a not one-size fits all nutrient and causes these problems with a subset of the population who are susceptible.
I do hope you’ll continue to read and share additional feedback and insights as I build out the blogs with additional research and a deeper dive into the mechanisms
Thank YOU for this information!! Finally someone making the connection that high dose Vit C can be detrimental for some people. I took high doses of (2-3,000 mg/day for 7 days) sodium ascorbate while vacationing in Hawaii in February, and while I didn’t catch COVID luckily, I severely damaged my body (temporarily I hope!). Just prior to vacation I had two oral surgeries of where I received IV Vit C during cavitation clean out surgery.
I had no idea I had an oxalate issue until I listened to a recent talk and came across some more information on the internet. Here’s what happened to me: we got home and I had unbelievable fatigue (thought it was from traveling), kidney & urinary pain (thought it was a kidney stone), my thyroid went out of whack and I had difficulty swallowing (TSH jumped from a 2 to a 5–thought it was due to lingering infection from cavitations), my hair started falling out in clumps and lost half my hair, my total iron levels went from the mid 80’s to 133, and I missed a period. Oh, and I couldn’t wear contacts for two months because I had such severe eye pressure that they hurt and were too dry. I’ve had every test done for infections, and everything was coming back negative (urinary/kidney, vaginal). My body started reacting to supplements with too many tannins/phenols (turmeric, green tea—also high oxalate).
It’s been a little over 2 months and I’m just now starting to get back to “normal”, after drinking boatloads of lemon water and following a low oxalate diet after trial and error (almonds & spinach were the triggers that made me realize it was an issue). My TSH has returned to the 2’s, periods are back, can finally wear contacts. However, I’m still battling 3 years of oral & gut dysbiosis after a round of PPIs & short course of prednisone for esophagitis (which was really an EColi infection).
I’m currently on a Candida cleanse. I have so many questions regarding the oxalate metabolism issue! How do you increase oxalabacter formigines (sp?) in the gut? Is calcium citrate safe to take with Candida overgrowth? How do you test for oxalate metabolism problems? My dilemma…I have protein fermentation issues with digestion and elevated EBV, so my gallbladder doesn’t do well with high fat or high protein. I’m borderline vegan so rely on a plant based diet but do eat a very light amount of clean animal protein/wild caught fish because that’s what feels best to my gallbladder/digestion/brain.
SO, how do you safely consume moderate oxalate foods without causing damage to the body (take calcium citrate with meals, lemon water, boil veggies)?? Would love to read more info on how to eat a balanced diet with oxalate metabolism issues (carnivore is out of the question for my bio individual needs…my body needs poly phenols, minerals, and antioxidants from fruits & veggies). Thank you again for this post!
…more symptoms. Almost certain I have pyroluria; based on the questionnaire (yes to all but 2 or 3), genetics, & recent NutrEval test I’m deficient in B6, Zinc, & magnesium. I have an under the radar Candida overgrowth that was hovering just below my jaw infections—Prevotella/Strep, Entomeoba, Actinomyces, based on Genova results). I have elevated bilirubin/UGT 1A SNPs (three in a row) & diagnosed with Gilbert’s. Almost certain of heavy metal toxicity in my system, but more money for more tests so haven’t officially checked levels yet (aside from blood tests which are high in arsenic—follow GF/dairy free diet). Rotate binders to proactively flush whatever may be there (humic/fulvics, Quicksilvers ultra binder sensitive, BioPure chlorella, and CytoDetox. Look forward to learning more about oxalates, their relation to Candida/Gut health, and some work arounds to live a healthy life with fruits & veggies! Thank you, Trudy, for all of the valuable information you share!
Hi Trudy,
I see we’ve fast tracked into Vit C, but just wanted to bet back to you regarding the type of oral Vit C I have been taking. ‘Designs for Health Liposomal,’ I teaspoon per day=5ml, ramped up to 2 teaspoons over last couple weeks. The Designs website/shop gives the composition of this nutrient.
When I first started taking it I felt queasy, but wasn’t surprised as I tended to ferment many foods and/or supplemets due to gut permeability and bacterial overgrowth. I stopped taking the Liposomal C for a little while, but continued with intermittent C IV plus home made orange juice, yes humble oranges! May I say I used more than one orange at a time plus ascorbic acid, ie 1 teaspoon of ‘Nutraceuticals Biomedica C-Max.’ I’m unsure where to access this particular product as purchased from practitioner’s rooms.
Once I had come to the end of the C-Max I recommenced the Liposomal C which sat quite well in my tum. Why the variation in response? I can only put it down to a change in the microbiome of the gut. Now I am wanting to source and trial a high quality Camu Camu powder. Trudy and friends have you found a product that ticks all the boxes?
I haven’t had an eGFR test, but kidney blood tests show all is well. Shall inquire regarding eGFR, I believe it’s an important test.
Cindy, you mentioned Collagen! Oh there’s a whole story there! Was reading an article–where was it now? Sorry,
I’m not able to quote where, but I know I’m to stay away from collagen supplements, and had that confirmed in
the article. If I find the info in my ‘History’ I will send it through. Apparently with collagen it’s about the pathways it can take, like so many other supplements etc…. At this point I would like to encourage everyone not to give up and please pay attention to the information that Judy is sharing with us, plus trusted personal intergrative practitioners we may have engaged. Since the oat test, Judy’s findings and research of my own, the pathways that are taken by supplements, as you say Judy are so, so crucial to returning the body to optimum health. There’s no room for guesswork, it’s not worth it.
Evan Brand interviewed a colleague on the topic of mould, time well spent listening! Evan talked about going to a supermarket and within minutes he started feeling dizzy-reaction to mould toxicity in the store. The information came just in time and answered the question as to why I felt dizzy that very day, not long after entering local supermarket. I mention this because I am dealing with mould toxicity in our flat and intend to purchase petri dishes to leave in each room in order to monitor mold. Where can I buy petri dishes specifically prepared for mould testing?
Thank you!
Rose.
Love the Northern Beaches Ocean pic, hard to figure where exactly, but I have more than likely passed it many times:)
I learn so much from you – thank you
I have been having night time leg pains on and off for over a year. I’m now beginning to wonder if it’s an oxalate issue. I eat a lot of nuts (not peanuts).
My 25 (OH) vitamin D is 94 nmol/l
eGFR 84
Serum adjusted calcium concentration is below range 2.14 nmol/l
Other labs in range inc B12, Mg, Zn
B6 not checked
Nothing else significant for me on questions you list
But I have periods of hot flushes (I’m 56 and peri menopausal) and I notice I don’t have the leg pains when I have hot flushes
How quickly does consumption of e.g lots of nuts cause symptoms?
Could I take a big dose of Vitamin C to establish whether I might have an oxalate issue?
Emma
Thanks for sharing. For someone with any ongoing pain symptoms with a high oxalate dietary intake over time, it would be worth investigating. I have updated the blog about the importance of making gradual changes. By the same token it’s not advised to test by taking a high dose of vitamin C.
Re when do symptoms start after eating lots of nuts – it can be within 30 minutes or a few days later or even up to 2 weeks later. It depends on the food, what your current oxalate load is and what else is going on (like vitamin B6 status, calcium citrate intake, git health etc). For me I feel medium- and high-oxalate foods within 30 mins to 2 hours and yet my trial of low dose vitamin C took 2 weeks for me to notice the pain.
Thank you for writing about oxalates. This is a fascinating discussion.
I have been gluten/corn/soy free, minimum dairy, limited sugar for years. Was on a Mediterranean diet, and eating lots of nuts and seeds and kale and had all kinds of knee and joint pain and random sharp jabbing pains throughout my body, deep bone pain, eye pain + was chronically constipated. Added flax seeds and psyllium husk to try to reduce constipation and things got worse. I read that nuts and seeds and kale could cause constipation so I reduced nuts and seeds, and limited kale and the constipation got better.
But I still have knee and joint pain and random pains and frequent headaches and painful sex. I have MTHFR, am pre-diabetic (underweight, SUPER sensitive to sugar, feel a yeast infection coming on if I eat a donut hole), have lymphedema and blood clots and on blood thinners. My doctors have chalked it up to diabetes, side effects to medication, and aging (50+). I’ve often wondered if one of my supplements could be contributing… Ester C 500 mg capsules of calcium ascorbate, calcium citrate, D3, magnesium, zinc, probiotics, fish oil. But they all seem so benign.
Now you’ve got me wondering about vitamin C. I saw your comment that Susan Owens says no more than 250mg/day so I’ll try reducing my dosage. I haven’t been able to find Ester C in 250 mg capsules. Any recommendations?
I had a lipoma removed but feel like there are hundreds more forming (feel like lentils just under my skin). They’re not sharp but wondering if it could be oxalate accumulation?
Fay
For someone with any ongoing pain symptoms since adding extra vitamin C and/or having a high oxalate dietary intake over time, it would be worth investigating. There has been much success with a low oxalate diet with vulvodynia and painful sex. I have updated the blog about the importance of making gradual changes.
Trudy,
Thank you so much for looking into all of this. Really keen to hear more. I have oxalate dietary issues. Sorry I can’t say anything about vitamin C but I would love to hear more about relation to past courses of antibiotics, as well as this link to mould. Both are issues for me.
Sharon
Please share about your dietary oxalate issues – what foods, what happens, how you mitigate the effects and where antibiotics and mold play a role. If you can answers any of the 1) to 19) questions it all helps. Also do you tolerate vitamin C or just not use it?
Ok Trudy, happy to help although I have not approached oxalates rigorously, When I became that oxalates was an issue for me, I had got tired of trying to sort my health out – I felt I had spent too many years and too much money researching my health and wanted to think and do other things. I seemed to be able to manage things on a certain level. Nor am I medically very educated! But hopefully you can glean a little from this and add it to your other research.
1. I ache, have muscle tension and weaknesses, fatigue, chemical sensitivities, food sensitivities, arthritis, Bursitis (self-diagnosis during covid-19) headaches and occasional migraines, thumping/throbbing brain, perpetual tension and need to keep going until I drop. But if I eat foods high in oxalates, I waken up with a headache, and aching muscles and feel decidedly ‘off’. I do have some sensitivity to EMF – holding a device for long makes my nervous system tingle.
6. I take a tablet of mangosteen a day and I ache less. I take magnesium and melatonin at night.
7. I have been aware of oxalates as a factor for about 4 or 5 years now. I avoid all high oxalate foods.
9. I have not been tested for kidney issues although I do have bladder urgency and frequency, and have no warning if I eat foods high in oxalates.
10. Oxalic acid 76
Glycolic acid 68
Glyceric acid 4.0
Arabinose 6.6
Ascorbic acid 1.8
Pyridoxic acid 0.00
Furandicarboxylic acid 0.09
hydroxy-methylfuroic acid 0.40
markers of bacterial imbalance – Hippuric 218, 2-hydroxphenylacetic 0.41, 4-hydroxybenzoic 1.1, 4-hydroxyhippuric 6.6, DhPPA 0.18
11. I said yes to 15 symptoms on the pyroluria test.
12. I fit into both low GABA and low serotonin descriptions.
13. Not sure
14. I haven’t been tested recently for any and my leaky gut has healed somewhat but I have been and suspect still am sensitive to gluten. Certainly in the past I had fat malabsorption, and I am starting to think that mould may be a big piece of the puzzle. Our house has a mouldy space underneath which definitely rises.I have had poor health while I have lived here. But I did not show as having an allergy in the UK’s (NHS) allergy test for mould, I thought I was not necessarily impacted.
15. I have lived in this house for 15 years and been sick since I moved in. At first I thought that it was cfs/me as I had just finished a phd, and thought I was burnt out with a leaky gut from two doses of long-term antibiotics for acne in the past. After perhaps ten years of that, I tried a gut healing approach but I had been doing an AIP diet for some months when my finger joints started to swell and hurt, along with other joints. Then I realised that certain foods made me feel dreadful and oxalates seemed to be the cause. (I am unclear if there is also a nightshade issue. I know that eating potato makes me feel dreadful but I haven’t eaten any other nightshades for a long time now and don’t feel inclined to experiment.) Now I can’t remember what foods made me feel bad when I first started to cut out oxalates – I now just avoid what is on the lists – almonds, spinach, strawberries, the list is very long!
Now I am more inclined to think that fibromyalgia would be a better description – along with all the complications of oxalate issues.
16. –
17. –
18. I do sometimes take a supplement of vitamin d as I live in the north of the UK. No specific amount.
I have avoided vitamin C recently, sorry. But I hope that this info is helpful somehow.
There is one thing thing I would love to know. Given that mould may well be a factor but I am not actually allergic to mould, is it possible to clean/remediate the basement professionally and throw out some furniture, but not necessarily move house? There would inevitably be mould in the floor boards etc, I presume.
I am curious . . . have you found if the source of Vitamin C matters? That is, do people feel the same symptoms if they eat an orange vs taking a supplement?
Michele
It seems some folks are adversely impacted by all sources of vitamin C supplements. Research shows Ester C may be less of an issue but some folks can’t even tolerate this one. Oranges are a high oxalate food so may well be a problem too – depending on the person’s oxalate load, gut health, B6 and calcium status etc
Trudy,
I have a recipe (non-ultrasonic machine method)
I have not tried it, have all of the ingredients to make, so maybe next week. I don’t have as many issues with Lip C as with the powders, capsules etc.
Today is our anniversary and I don’t have the time to write a comment.
Will come back next week as I want to share a book I found and also share how I use a systems model to monitor my symptoms and life.
With several dx’s and a different life style I know how miserable one can be…my life has been so uncomfortable so much any way I can help others is so important.
Really wish we had regional support groups, as so many do not understand how such healthy foods make us sick,
Thanks Cheryl, excellent input. Liposomol seems important, ( see below). Sorry your family has been dealing with this ( like mine). Camu Camu is amazing. Golden berries, goiaba, kiwi, acerola, hibiscus – are also wonderful core sources. We are in Brazil and blessed to find many fruits that can be used with whites of peels for bioflavonoids in juice, etc..
I think often it’s how we take a supplement. When we use it. What we combine it with. And correcting underlying conditions which reduce our tolerance.
Some 5:/: of the population have Hereditary Alpha Tryptasemia ( HaT) genetic trait ; where extra copies are found on the gene making Tryptase ( a protein made in bone marrow found in mast cells). The test costs $169 from a lab called Gene by Gene. I tested positive for this, as my son (with an adult onset autism. ). In fact autism is more common with HaT and while the NHI has buried some of the research, I believe it’s more linked to vaccine autoimmune reactions as well.
When mast cells are over reactive and histamine in particular is elevated, all hell can occur. In my son it can lead to seizures, olfactory hallucinations and exacerbation of psychosis. Immediately taming such reactions with ascorbic acid mixed with bicarbonate has been a huge help. In mast cell reactions, often common medicines such as anti histamines , because of fillers, create more allergy and are not tolerated. Thus, pure non GMO ascorbic acid as a natural antihistamine has been extremely important. I also agree with Ben Lynch to rotate its use and to mix it with electrolytes.
Oxalate dumping is real , painful, and can be a serious issue, I am aware. However, would hate to see people stay clear of vitamin C right now during Covid.
Correct me if I’m wrong two conditions that seem downstream from oxalate problems, that always need correcting are : A) candida over growth; and, B) pyrrole disorder. Both can be highly debilitating – even deadly ( with suicide, alcoholism, mental illness involved with pyrrole and with 10:/: mortality for systemic candida). Thus correcting candida and pyrrole disorder would be a prerequisite? Would this allow correcting oxalate issues and for tolerating vitamin C (with all its exceptional anti viral and anti histamine effects, along with many other attributes? One wonders.
In my previous career I was confronted with a horrible outbreak of scurvy in Ethiopian refugees and have sung the praises of ascorbic acid ever since. To see the suffering that extreme Vitamin C deficiency can cause ( massive failure of connective tissue), is a testimony to just how important this nutrient is. I would love to discover more though on safe vitamin C use during this pandemic. Thank you for exploring this subject so thoroughly.
Hi Angela,
What you shared above, I call “puzzle pieces” it is a path each person gets to walk alone.
I think we have to acknowledge our parts in the pattern of the body being injured. Most of us were good little children and went along with what ever our parents teachers, doctors recommended or treated us with.
Many years ago I scheduled an appointment with a Functional or what was then called a “Wholistic MD”. She sent me a 25 page intake form. It went back to my birth. This made me go back with as much knowledge as I had to show a pattern of where or when some of the issues started.
We have a vaccine injured child , the last 15 years it has been my job to try to heal them. They were dx’d totally disabled. I know the reactions , the food and chemical sensitivities, the worry and fears.
So far I have gone back and realized that Candida is a constant issue so we are just going at it again.
Vit C can be a life saver, but I have found that Liposomal C so far is working for me.. In Jan I put our whole family on Dr David Brownstein’s supplement protocol, as I researched further I added others.
It has been a long road, but one morning I awakened with my little finger on my left hand swollen with an arthritic joint. I do not have arthritis, but the pain controlled my mind and actions. So my mind said supplements. WE only use the pure vit C powder, non GMO. I try to only buy pure powders, have different sources.
Many years ago I was at a journal club and one of the members presented a paper on research that had done an assay on adipose tissue, the researcher found the fat tissue to be holding the ruminates of supplement binders, fillers and other compounds used for supplements. That really hit me, as I am so MCS, and have reacted to many things, but most docs think you are crazy.
Did you know you can get a pure Cal Citrate powder, and not the filled caps?
I joke with the supplement reps on the phone and say, ” does your doc tell you to not forget your dose of arsenic daily! Brown rice is higher in arsenic than white rice. So have you ever measured the pure powder in to a capsule and seen how little real ingredient is in a capsule.
We treat our kitties and when you measure 50 mg of Co Q 10 you see how little is really in a capsule or a tablet.
Cellulose can be ground up bleached sawdust, or bleached ground newspapers. Supplements from China bother me. So I seek our the cleanest fillers I can . I tell others ingredient matter, look at a cookie recipe, margarine, butter, coconut fat all result in a different cookie.
Bake to the swollen finger, I awakened one night and my mind said…Vit C…oxalates. So I stopped pronto and now about 3/4 weeks later the swelling is going down slowly. I changed to Lipsomal, and do have Camu Camu powder on had if needed.
Dose equals symptoms for me, so I know I can eat 2 thin slices of green apple, green apples are best to help fight Candida, more than that my symptoms of a UTI surface, so as Angela says one thing can cause a symptom , and we have to watch carefully.
The tie into oxalates and H. Pylori is always a concern for me, as it is harder to treat at home naturally.
Minerals should always be part of a supplement schedule in my mind. Vaccine injury usually calls for detoxing of heavy metals, thus minerals are a must, as heavy metals are carried out of the body on the backs of minerals.
But watch carefully what sources those minerals are processed from, both my hubs and child are now sensitive to shell fish. We don’t eat any so it was easy to find the source.
Someone ask about the dose of Cal Citrate for oxalates.. my experience has been to take the lowest dose, and then listen to your body. I have had to up my dose, and I take it with the meal.
I miss dairy as loading soups, salads etc with dairy helps to carry oxalates out of the system. But I am now sensitive so don’t do it .
After the run on supplements I always recommend you have a 6 months supply on hand.
I am not a great meat eater, so when you look at the foods one can eat that are either low or have no oxalates it is slim. So I have a bottle in each vehicle, one beside my bed, etc… I am ordering more today as I can’t live with out it.
We live in a rather remote area, at best it takes 4 days plus to get a package, or a 12 hour round trip drive to hit a health food store.
Add in Histamine Intolerance , Night Shades and Nitrates and ones diet is very limited, thus supplements are a must.
I may have our child tested for the specific test you ran.
Thanks all for your knowledge and to Trudy for this blog.
Time to plant the garden, we are past the last snow date.
Cheryl
Angela,
For some reason the system does not take me to your reply.
I just looked up the products that http://www.PureBulk.com sells. I have purchased from them before , fast shipping and reasonable prices. 1 888 280 0050 right now they are backed up and taking call backs today.
I found them via a researcher friend of mine who was looking at the reports on purity etc.
Dr. Karen Becker DMV has some wonderful info for pet treatments. She only recommends human products and that is where I found Camu Camu powder. Cats can’t take vit c powder burns their mouths.
My take on research and life if this, our bodies are not perfect and how we process or don’t process a vitamin is so individual.
With a nitrate sensitivity, all I had to eat was 3 small baby spinach leaves to feel like I had been kicked by a 1000# mule, and eating three thin slices of cooked celery meant I could eat it , but had to be home in bed in an hour or I could not walk.
Labs do research but did you know no one has ever tested the animals for electrical magnetic field radiation sickness. Meaning was it the testing or were the mice impacted by EMF’s. Our child is so sensitive, fluorescent lights in stores can give him a headache that nothing but time will touch.
After listening to “The Body Electric Summit” my understanding changed greatly.
We are now working on replanting trees for the 3 rd time, we are dealing with Geopathic stress and all the trees die. Also impacts ones health if your bed is over a vein of geopathic stress.
I would invite you to learn more by joining Lloyd Burrell’s “Electric Sense email newsletter.
This opens up a totally different dimension to healing, gut issues and brain fog.
Healing is a slow process, so hard but our bodies did not break down in a month or six months
It can be so slow we don’t even acknowledge it, unless we keep a symptom survey and check back in from time to time.
Take a look at your bottle of Cal Citrate…Mag Stearate, Watercress Leaf, Dandelion Root and Parsley Leaf. Hummmmm see some oxalates?
Off to plant.. Cheryl
Angela
Thanks for contributing to the discussion and sharing your son’s story with Hereditary Alpha Tryptasemia and how amazing vitamin C is for him. I am not familiar with the HaT/autism connection. Feel free to share some links to articles or studies.
And yes, a rule we don’t want to stay clear of vitamin C (the Ethiopian refugee story is profound and it’s crucial for so much in the body) but at the same time I feel it’s harmful to say everyone can take it and there are no ramifications. Dumping is real and painful and long-term consequences for thyroid disease, heart disease, bone pain, eye issues and even deafness are severe.
I would like to be able to identify which instances it should be avoided (hopefully only short-term) or what can be used to mitigate the effects so small doses can be used (like B6, calcium citrate, MSM etc). And yes addressing candida and pyrrole disorder are prerequisites in all instances.
I have been listening to Dr Andrew Saul Vitamin Masterclass daily on Vitamins especially Vitamin C. He said that Vitamin C does not affect the kidney or make Oxalates.
Trudy, it would be wise to listen to Dr Saul or purchase his tapes for only $55.
Then you can answer all your clients questions.
Also go to http://www.doctoryourself.com
Interesting on Saul observation. I looked at the biochemistry at one point and it seemed that NON absorbed vitamin C is the culprit re oxalates. In a kind of feedback loop that goes awry. How much is absorbed becomes the question. Most nutritionists were taught you cannot absorb more than 250 mg at a time. Maybe liposomol changes that ?
And then some advocates say once you’re in a state of high infection, such as Covid, your needs for vitamin C are increased dramatically . Does that mean your ability to absorb the vitamin is increased also – and one has less “ left over” to contribute to oxalates? Such wonderful questions generated from these threads!
Granny,
My question is does Dr. Saul have a oxalate problem himself?
If not I do not believe he has the right to make that statement.
I had massive vaginal inflammation for two years, constant UTI symptoms with no infection. I just happened to read a list serve where oxalates were discussed.
I had a 75% reduction in symptoms with in 24 hours, what a wonder and the pain and discomfort abatement was amazing.
I have learned in life that research can say one thing when reality says something different.
I have read thousands of research papers, and what is not understood is that the abstract or summary may not state what is really in the paper.
Many docs simply read the abstract and not the whole paper. I now realize that when docs were treating me for UTI’s they never even realized that my chronic sinus was tied to the UTI’s thus killing my microbiome and destroying the enzymes that processed histamines and oxalates.
Trying to heal a leaky gut and eat healthy is not a simple thing.
And eating organic does not guarantee that one is getting the nutrients that are to be in the food per a nutrient analysis. As organic farmers are not required to do a nutrient analysis on there products. If the nutrients are not in the soil, it can’t be in the food.
It did take about 2.5 months for the Vit C powder to build up but when it hit it hit hard.
Right now too many irons in the fire to listen to him but will try to get to it later.
Thanks for sharing,
Cheryl
Cheryl
GrannyD
Yes Dr Andrew Saul and Orthomolecular Medicine News Service (he is their editor-in-chief) are steadfast in their conviction that there are no issues with vitamin C, saying it doesn’t cause kidney stones (I mention this in the blog above). As of right now, as much as I respect their work and until I learn more, I have a professional difference of opinion – there are mixed results in the research about kidney stones and vitamin C, and research that doesn’t fit with what we see clinically with dietary oxalates i.e. that systemic oxalate issues/pain can only occur when there is chronic kidney disease. I’ll be sharing links to research and articles in the follow-up blog, with additional information about some possible mechanisms.
Trudy, Are there any new books or research papers out on this topic. I did buy the VF Foundation book , but hope there continues to be more research done.
I just had an extremely painful bout from eating cashews. After reading all of the comments here I now know my pain levels come from Oxalates, as have cut our Nightshades, sugar etc. Loved using dairy to carry them out of my body but am not sensitive to dairy.
Thanks everyone for your sharing process and we all need to support each other on the path.
Cheryl
Thanks for sharing your oxalate experience. I’m not aware of any new books on this topic but will be sharing a blog with links to some studies shortly. If the VF Foundation book helpful?
Trudy
So far so good on the Liposomal C, it is important to monitor symptoms after taking any supplement.
I did go and find the book, “The Oxalate Cookbook, Book Two 2005
The lack of oxalate amounts per recipe was shocking. And because we eat all organic, GF low to no sucrose, and only clean chicken pastured fresh ranch eggs, and grass fed grass finished beef, the recipes did me little good.
From my assessment it is mostly all low density nutrient foods and for healing one needs high density foods
What was pure gold was finding Cal Citrate, the researcher from Wyoming and a community of others who suffer.
After listening to your talk on The Vagus Nerve Summit, and listening to others it dawned on me that I have a damaged vagus nerve and most likely it was the starting point to a cascade of medical issues. It give me hope to heal and perhaps expand my menu items.
Ordered Dr Habib’s book, and looking into some of the healing methods via someone else’s research posted by one of your followers.
Putting all of the pieces of a puzzle together takes time.
I am hopeful at last after many years.
By the way, I have signed up for the Vagus summit, and do not get the notices. I learn about them from other bloggers. But can’t listen unless I resign up again. Too much trouble.
A side note, I have healed my cats via single amino acids with great success.
Cheryl
There’s so much rich material here — thank you for providing this site and info, Trudy. I have been taking my time reading it all, coming back periodically to pick up where I left off….
A new question: Regarding the oxalate issue, I wonder if taking liposomal Vitamin C would avoid the problem? I’ve read where it has superior absorption, etc., so I wonder if this would be better than other C supplements, such as ester-C ??
My back muscle pain is clearing up now that I’ve stopped taking ester-C supplements, though there’s still a about 30mg of Vitamin C in my multivitamin. But that’s minimal compared to the 2,000mg dose I was taking of ester C a couple months ago.
Cindy
Glad to hear the back muscle pain is clearing up since stopping Ester-C. There is some research showing Ester-C may be better tolerated in some instances but even that form can cause issues for some folks.
I also wondered about liposomal C but it seems to be all forms and very much case by case.
Hi fellow suffers,
Yesterday I realized what stress does to drive my oxalate pain levels.
Have been dealing with cell phone issues for months, thought it was resolved. ha ha
As the pain accelerated and I knew I needed some kind of relief, I remember that an herb I had studies would bring me some relief. As we all know the misery oxalates can cover our brains body and behaviors.
I opened a drawer and out came my bottle of….Uva Ursi Leaf? I have studied UTI’s for years as have dealt with them most of my life.
Study this one and see if it works for you. It was stated that it helps the tissues in the urinary track lining. It along with Juniper Berry and sometimes some Grape Fruit Seed Extract, are my go to when I am desperate to end the pain,
Both Juniper Berry and GFSE are well known to kill E coli as natural antibiotics. I read the book 2nd Edition “Natural Antibiotics” about 4 years ago and have recommended it since.
I know that my histamine intolerance at times adds to my inflammatory body load, so if needed I add other supplements.
On my end, I take just a 1/2 teaspoon of liposomal C three times a day. So far I have had no issues.
We use Camu Camu for our kitties, may put some in a capsule and give it a try.
My fear is that the oxalate and food sensitives have messed up my absorption and thus afraid that I am not getting the benefit of the supplements.
I do miss the dairy that helped carry out the oxalates from meal times , I use pure Ca Citrate powder and it helps more than the caps with fillers.
My motto is …..Never leave home with out my helpers and natural pain relief supplements.
Happy Weekend all,
Cheryl
Hi there all,
I found a magazine published by The New Zealand Journal of Natural Medicine that features an article on the front page entitled ‘The Man Who Cured Polio with Vitamin C, written by Laraine C. Abbey RN; CNS.
Dr Albert Klenner, MD is the medical practitioner who shared his findings, beginning with the Introduction: ‘The Gift of Vitamin C.’
Oxalates among other subjects are mentioned in view of this almost controversial vitamin! For those interested, back copies are available for purchase online-some are free. The issue I have, loaned to me by a girlfriend is no. 34, August-November, 2019. Cheers, Rose.
Thanks Rose,
I wonder if the Linus Pauling Institute has this on line as they have massive amounts of research and data collection.
From time to time I get their newsletter. Will take more care to see if I can see if they have links to this finding.
I just wish that research on oxalates and some kind of gut bug would be produced to give us true relief.
An ND told me that the word in her world is that when we are given too many antibiotics it kills the part of the microbiome that breaks down the oxalates.
My feeling is that antibiotics are still handed out like candy and more and more will become oxalate sensitive.
When a local doc wrote a script for my hubs of Cipro I as shocked. He must not know that Congress met some years back to try to outlaw that cluster of drugs. It can destroy the tendons and put people in wheel chairs. I believe their is an online group called “Floxed” who lobby all the time to outlaw this drug category.
As we all know there are better days and worse days.
Going to try making some Water Kefir to bring some cold sparkling joy to a hot summer day.
I like fresh kefir grains not dried, but sometimes they are so bad, when ordered on line and with no local sources, it is the only option. Why the health food stores don’t sell in a cold case is beyond me, must be some federal law.
Buying on line is never totally good.
Cheryl
1- 6) DOSAGE/SYMPTOMS/DURATION/TREATMENT:
Dosage: Kirkland Vitamin C Ascorbic Acid (1000 mg / 1/day), Natures Bounty Vitamin D3 (1000 IU 25 mcg / ½ day). Age: 70 years, female, (5’10”, 106 lbs)
Note: The dosage intake started August 31, 2020, following recommmendion by family member because of Covid immune support.. Never taken vitamin C and D on a regular basis my entire life. Noticed a sensitivity to magnesium and calcium non-citrate supplements. I have not been on any prescribed medications my entire life (except antibiotics), have no current health problem, nor have taken suppplements except for fish oil. I was not taking any other prescrbed medications or supplements before/after intake dosage of Vitamin C and D3.
Symptoms and Duration:
Mild symptoms appeared within 48 hours after intake of both Vitaminn C and D3. First the headaches, muscle / joint pain/cramping, night sweats and trouble sleeping, fatigue, anxiety, mood swings and severe skin irritation/inflammation. Discontinued intake dosage of both Vitamin C and D3 on September 5, 2020. The mild symptoms of headaches, night sweats, and anxiety subsided after discontiuned intake dosage.
Skin/joint symptoms persisted which culminated in a severe bilateral skin breakout of papules and nodules on 75% of my upper/lower torso and extremities mapped to all the points of synovial fluid flow. Pain resembled severe arthritis in all joints, even the jaw. Some weight loss. After discontinued dosage intake no further skin breakouts occurred, but there are still visible clusters of black nodules under the skin where the pain resides.. Also had eye issues (swollen, lost partial eyebrow, vision) and mental concentration.
Areas Affected: All fatty tissue, cartilage and bone throughout the body. Face (eyebrows, cheeks, eyes swollen shut, lips, jawbone), neck, shoulder, arms, elbows, wrists, fingers), breasts, lungs?? (not sure), all fatty tissue (noticeable internal deposits, hips, knees, ankles, toe pain like plantar facilititiis. Where suspected internal deposits collected large papules and nodules have erupted. Pictures were taken to document.
Recovery: I am still recovering after severe symptoms occurred to this date and have not gone back to normal. I have persistent mild needle-like pain in torso and all extremities and feet. I have lost muscle mass because of fatty tissue deposits thus weight loss to 106 lbs (5’10”). but have had trouble keeping weight on since kidney issues in 2017. Being active physically with yoga and work, I am limited to do anything strenuous in fear of damage to bone and cartilage let along muscle. This has been the most debilitating severe outbreak which could have been worse with continued intake. Vision problems have improved to normal, but my eyebrow did not come back.
My concerns on recovery are outlined below: Repair and dissolve of deposits in fatty tissue, cartilage, and joints. I am sure the pain would would be alleviated also. Repair damaged of skin tissue. I would like to gain more weight to approximately 120 lbs. I need help/advice. I met a stone-wall with my healthcare provider. They simply sent me home with prescribed Voltaren topical skin ointment and a single slogan “eat low oxalates”.
Treatment:
Calcium and magnesium citrate in powder form daily, vitamin B6, reduced glutathione (1/3 days), L-arginine, Epsom salts baths, sodium bicarbonate mixed with lime juice in water daily, and topical Voltaren prescriptive skin cream. Red Hibiscus Tea every night.
Healthcare Physician Visits:
1) Dept Urology (September 18, 2020). Treatment: “Eat Low Oxalates” No guidance on diet or supplements. When questioned this reaction caused by oxalates or vit c/d, physicial explained that with my test results that this would not possibly be the case.
2) Dept Dermatology (September 28, 2020) Treatment: Voltaren skin ointment.
7) OXALATE ISSUES: Unknowingly, oxalates probably were an issue my entire life. Symptoms ranged from mild periodic headaches fibromyalgia. joint pain, feet swelling and soreness, eye irritation, and skin rashes resembling eczema. I was able to maintain symptoms through regular weight bearing exercise and eating healthy. I have never had to diet my entire life and eat 3-4 meals a day. After diagnosis of borderline hyperoxaluria two years ago skin issues started with rashes (3 to 4 ttimes a year). I am eating a moderate oxalate diet with no supplementation of magnesium/calcium citrate and B6.
8) SEVERITY OF ISSUES? most severe
9) KIDNEY ISSUES: After a misdiagnosed 16 month bout of UTI infections along with strong antibiotics, a 10 mm oxalate kidney stone was removed after 3 surgeries (lithoscopy, 2017). No other kidney stones since then. Tested by Litholink, San Diego an diagnosed with borderline hyperoxaluria.
10) GREAT PLAINS LABORATORY (OAT) test: NOT performed by UCSD Urology
11) Pyroluria: No symptoms and have not been tested for deficient B6.
12) Score: High score on poor sleep, pain, anxiety and nervousness, and mood swings.
13) GENETIC MARKERS: No genetic testing done
14) celiac disease, gluten sensitivity, leaky gut, liver issues, gall stones, no gallbladder, poor bile production, fat malabsorption, mold toxicity issues, low pancreatic enzymes, candida, high iron/ferritin? None of the above.
15) Mold toxicity test such as the Great Plains MycoTOX profile:No mold testing performed and do not live in a moldy environment.
16) Stool test (and which stool test): No stool test performed.
17) Mercury, high lead or high levels of other metals: No heavy metals testing perf ormed by physicians.
18) VITAMIN D: Never tested for Vitamin D level and only for the first time started taking Vit D because of COVID immunity.
19) Out-of-range (functional levels) markers on blood work or other lab tests: No other out-of-range markers on blood or other lab tests.
LJPearl
Thank you for sharing your story and all the additional information. So sorry to hear this serious outcome and how quickly you were adversely impacted. I’m glad to hear your doctor recommended low oxalate diet but I’m not surprised they did not think your reaction was due to vitamin C/vitamin D.
I do hope you’re doing better now but if you’re still trying to recover I recommend connecting with Susan Owens and other folks in the TLO (Trying low oxalates) facebook group. Some of the symptoms you describe are beyond my expertise with oxalate issues – like the “suspected internal deposits …with large papules and nodules” and weight loss/loss of muscle etc. Since you have pictures these may be helpful for Susan to look at.
Apologies for the delay in your comment approval and my response. We had a computer glitch where a large number of comments were hidden from view in a spam folder. It mostly affected new folks who were commenting for the first time but it’s hopefully resolved now.
I just wanted to share something that may be another thing to look at for some people experiencing. I have histamine intolerance, oxalate sensitivity and salicylate sensitivity. I think it’s one that a lot of people are not aware of and it has almost identical symptoms as oxalate sensitivity. Chances are, if you have leaky gut, sibo, gut issues in general, you may have issues with all of these. I’d also like to share that I was taking ester c and it did well to reduce certain histamine issues, but created a lot of other symptoms that were not fun (rage, sadness, etc). I tried camu camu and that was even worse! My body did not like that and I am wondering if it’s because it’s high in salicylate. I didn’t check, but because it’s a plant/fruit, I am assuming that’s what triggered a reaction.
Hope this helps!
Interesting!!