Dr. Peter Osborne DC, author of Glutenology, was interviewed on the Anxiety Summit by host of the Anxiety Summit, Trudy Scott, Food Mood Expert and Nutritionist, author of The Antianxiety Food Solution.
Grainflammation – How Grain Consumption Contributes to Anxiety and other Mood Disorders
- Gluten and autoimmunity
- Schizophrenia and “bread madness”
- How gluten and all grain consumption can lead to chemical changes in the brain
- How the gluten in corn can impact the mind and mood
- Concerns with seeds and grains
- DNA testing for celiac and non-celiac gluten sensitivity
Here are some snippets from our interview:
Gluten is notorious for damaging the gastrointestinal tract. I know iron, in the literature, has always been reported as the most common most deficiency in gluten sensitivity. In my 15 years of practice, measuring both ferritin as well as iron panels and vitamin B12 levels, I see B12 being much, much more common as a deficiency in those with gluten sensitivity. The most common side effect of B12 deficiency, beyond fatigue, is actually anxiety.
We discussed the work of Dr Alessio Fasano, world-renowned pediatric gastroenterologist, research scientist and entreprenuer, chief of Pediatric Gastroenterology and Nutrition at MassGeneral Hospital for Children (MGHfC).
The second barrier is called the right junction, which we know gluten can cause a disruption in tight junctions. This was discovered by Alessio Fasano at Harvard. He actually discovered it while he was at University of Maryland Celiac Research Facility. He discovered these tight junctions were disrupted and dismantled as a result of gluten exposure.
We also know bacterial infections can disrupt these barriers. We also have some evidence that show that glyphosate in Roundup and other chemical artificial pesticides and herbicides can disrupt this gastrointestinal barrier.
We discussed lipopolysaccharides (LPS) and how they
can create a lot of inflammatory reaction, and they can contribute to a breakdown in the blood brain barrier
Here is a recent paper on LPS and anxiety and depression: Early prenatal exposure to LPS results in anxiety- and depression-related behaviors in adulthood
We found that mice exposed to LPS show anxiety- and depression-related behaviors
In addition, LPS mice had reduced serotonin and noradrenaline levels in the hippocampus
Here is the blood brain barrier paper discussed – The blood-brain barrier in neuroimmunology: Tales of separation and assimilation
The corn zein discussion was fascinating and concerning because so many people are eating gluten-free products that contain corn (another reason to pass on the processed gluten-free products and just eat real whole food!)
Here are two papers that discuss this (corn is called maize in South Africa)
- Maize prolamins resistant to peptic-tryptic digestion maintain immune-recognition by IgA from some celiac disease patients
- Maize prolamins could induce a gluten-like cellular immune response in some celiac disease patients.
Here is Dr. Osborne’s gift: 7 Habits of the Highly Effective Gluten-Free Warrior (3 videos)
Here is the information about Genetic Testing For Gluten Sensitivity and Celiac Disease
If you are not already registered for the Anxiety Summit you can get live access to the speakers of the day here: www.theAnxietySummit.com
Missed this interview or can’t listen live? Or want this and the other great interviews for your learning library? Purchase the MP3s or MP3s + transcripts and listen when it suits you.
You can find your purchasing options here: Anxiety Summit Season 1, Anxiety Summit Season 2, and Anxiety Summit Season 3.
Excellent interview with Dr. Osborne. The link for the interview with Dr. Fasano doesn’t seem to work.
Sharon
Thanks! It was working this morning but I know there have been recent web changes on their end and we’ll let you know when it’s been fixed – sorry about this but it’s worth coming back to!
Trudy
Loved this interview! Does Dr. Osborne accept new patients and can the consult be done over Skype if in a different state? I desperately need a alternative medicine doctor! I have been having horrible GI issues with anxiety and panic attacks for the past 3 years and all the tests are normal. My doctors cannot explain what is going on and told me to “live with it”! I will NOT accept it. I am in Jacksonville, Fl and I cannot seem to find a functional practitioner that could help. Finding a nutritionist is a challenge as well. I am self medicating at the moment. Any suggestions?
Hi Jo
I’m sorry to hear about your anxiety and GI issues. You do not have to live with it! Dr Osborne is in Houston, TX and you’d best contact his office. Let me know if you need help finding someone local or if you’d like to work with me long-distance
Trudy
I won’t be able to travel, but I am open to long distance communication. Please, let me know how we can get in touch:)
Hi Jo,
Try calling 281-240-2229.
All the best,
Dr O
Move over Bruce Springsteen, Dr. Osborne is THE BOSS!
I hope your upcoming book has an audio version that you read yourself.
If we could clone thousands of you and place you in offices and hospitals all over the USA our country would be dramatically changed. Thank you for your talents, dedication, and all you do in a public way.
Anne
How lovely – I’ll be sure to pass this on to Dr Osborne! I think he’s pretty amazing too!
Trudy
This was by far the very best explanation I have heard to date of the many factors that affect our health when grain is consumed (and I have listened to very many presentations). Yes, it’s not just the gluten.
Dr Osborne and Trudy thank you for bringing this information to us in such an intelligent, fact-based, and organized way! My only regret is that all the health providers and citizens of our country were not listening and learning as well. Bravissimo!
Well said Roseann – the plan is to get more of them listening so keep sharing! you and everyone!
Wow Anne, your honor me!
Thank you for your kind words.
All the best,
Dr. O
I was diagnosed with RA 16 years ago and have been searching for answers ever since. I was challenged to go gluten free, but I was eating gluten free processed foods.
I read a book by Dr. William Davis which convinced me that I should try a grain free diet. It works, I have been off all my pain medication since Dec. 2014. My fear is that RA is still doing damage to my joints so I feel I need to get some additional help. Dr. Daniel Amen is located near me and I was wondering about getting help from his.
I also ordered the amino acids that you recommended on one of your talks and feel they are helping me also.
Thanks for your good work I am thrilled with all I am learning.
Mary
How wonderful that you have off all pain medication! I would suggest having your antibodies retested as you may found that have gone down. Also get fatty acid levels tested and consider high doses of fish oil and/or olive oil. There is much evidence that this helps with RA.
I’m so pleased you’re learning and getting results. Of course, hearing that the aminos are helping too is wonderful
Trudy
I second what Anne said! Enjoyed this very, very much.
I am gluten-free, but cannot imagine being grain-free at the moment. What does Peter eat for breakfast, lunch and dinner on a typical day (does he eat potatoes or other non-grain carbs?) Is there a different need for women vs. men?
Also, Dr. Amen says, for example, Compuslive types should eat a higher complex-carbohydrate diet. Does this mean vegetable carbs and/or grain?
Thanks!
Elle
It’s really not that hard and is often the next logical step after being gluten-free. I’ll see if he’ll come and share his meals. I can tell you that I am grain free and also don’t eat starchy veggies.
There are many trains of thought so it’s really a matter of finding what works for you. Another person who is in favor of grains and non-resistant starches is Dr Alan Christianson.
Trudy
You are so right, Trudy! After reading that you are grain-free too, I went back to look at my tests and think it’s time to embrace it.
I have the Single HLA-DQ8 haplotype. rs7454108(C;T). What does that mean in terms of Celiac Disease (I have it, I’m more likely to have it by 80% if my genes express themselves or ?)
Also, when testing for gluten sensitivity and Celiac Disease, what does it mean if you have a high Actomyosin IgA and an out of range Intrinsic Factor? Dr. Osborne? (I look forward to seeing the tests he mentioned.)
I don’t know what youall think of it, but I enjoyed Dr. Borysenko’s book The Plant-Based Diet, because she points out that we’re all different and we need to find out what works for us through testing and experimentation.
I’m not familiar with this book but favor animal protein for folks with mood issues (and in general) provided plenty of healthy plant-based foods are inlcuded
Enjoyed dr osborne’s informative talk – emphasis on avoiding grains – think this might be the missing link to my weight gain and ill health despite being gfcf (such hard work though!)
Wonderful Janine!
Trudy,
My sincere gratitude for the work, organization, structure, and committment that went into this summit.
Dr Osborne is truely a modern day pioneer. So far I have enjoyed his interview the most.
Your interview style Trudy is warm and engaging and you ask the insightful questions that resonate greatly with your listeners.
In Gratitude,
Denise
Denise
This is so kind of you to post this 🙂 big smiles here 🙂
I agree, “Dr Osborne is truely a modern day pioneer”! he’s going to come and read these comments so I know he’ll see this too
Trudy
Thank you so much for your kind words 🙂
They mean more than you know.
All the best,
Dr. O
Couldn’t agree more. I’ve been listening to a lot of Summits lately (who needs graduate schools with out-of-date material any more!), and youalls are two of the very best!! Many thanks!
Jim – thanks! love the youalls!
I agree with everyone else about Dr. Osborne. Just to hear a health practitioner speak with so much concern, intelligence and real curiosity about the processes involved in these types of illness and healing, is an amazing experience. I am always surprised when the medical people I deal with are so uninterested in discovering what has gone wrong with a person’s health. I would assume ‘health’ was the what any living body was set up to have in the first place. If it doesn’t have health, something must not be working right, there must be a reason. I realize that there might be situations where excellant health might be impossible to achieve but it seems most doctors can’t be bothered to find out what the problem is. Or if they know, they don’t care to explain. In America the problem could be that insurance companies won’t pay for anything except the quick and easy drug solution. And most of us cannot afford to pay for the time and attention it takes for a concerned health practitioner to work with a patient do help discover the best practices to be undertaken by that patient. I am willing to do the necessary life changes. I need someone who will help me figure out what to try and give me the information, support and incouragement to accomplish it. I have spent my whole life improving my diet, changing to organic and learning to cook so I can give up processed, industrial food. I am 65 and luckily gave up corn products 30 some years ago because I knew it increased my autoimmune issues. I played around with soy milk when I started menopause. Soy and antibiotics for tooth and gum issues got my gut messed up and I have been fighting increased arthritis type autoimmune problems, alone, ever since. I do use some pain meds and anti-inflametories since that is all my Drs. offer me on Medicare.
Chris
Thanks for sharing and good for you making all those changes! You may want to look at some gut healing so you don’t need the pain meds – you can heal from this. And do tune in to Joe Tata’s pain interview. High doses of fish oil and even olive oil help with arthritis and the olive oil protects the gut when you are taking anti-inflammatories. I’d encourage you to find a natural anti-inflammatory (ginger/bromelain/turmeric etc)
Trudy
Hi:
I have celiac. After seeing many docs was finally
diagnosed. I agree with your message…
educate yourself. It’s so important. One doc told
me to stop reading!
Can you recommend a good B12 supplement?
Thank you for your wonderful presentation. So much
information!
Kathy
What!? crazy…”One doc told me to stop reading!” Good for you – yeah to “educate yourself. It’s so important”
Get a methyl B12 sublingual. I’ll be discussing supps and the ones I like in a later interview on the summit so stay tuned
Trudy
Hi Kathy, I test positive for the celiac gene as well. I was using a sublingual B12 from the health food store but then discovered a new B12 mouth spray by Dr. Mercola that I am now using. You can find him on Google. If you are not familiar with him, he has a newsletter you can sign up for that publishes much of the latest research. I have not had my B12 level re tested as I have only been using it for a couple of months. I am also using his Vitamin D3 spray as well, and recent blood work indicates that level has gone up.
Hi, Trudy, I am enjoying Anxiety Summit 3, same as 1 and 2.
I feel proud to be with you in 1 group of Bioindividual nutrition course with Julie. I am very inspired by your work, effectiveness and willingness to share all this great info.
I have a question to Dr Osborne. He mentions B12 deficiency and anemia going hand in hand. I have been anemic all my life (Iron and Ferritin much lower than minimum value of ref interval), but have elevetaed B12. Would love to hear Dr Osbornes thoughts re this.
Thanks, Si
Hi Silvija
Super – so pleased to have you on all 3 summits! and so pleased you’re enjoying Julie and Bioindividual Nutrition Institute training
I’ll have Dr Osborne come and comment. I know he likes to use Spectracell testing for b12
In the meantime, have you tested B12, MMA and homocysteine as B12 on it’s own is not a reliable marker and may be high based on what you just ate?
Do you have pyroluria? this can be related to low iron/ferritin. Or heavy period? or leaky gut? of gluten issues?
Trudy
Oh, Trudy, can not believe you got time to answer so quickly. Homocysteine is high, yes. Not sure about Pyroluria, have to study it a bit more to understand.
Usually they say to take vit B12 to reduce Homocysteine, but I can not find info how to reduce Homocysteine if B12 is elevated already. What is MMA?
Thanks, Trudy, will be pleased to find Dr Osbornes comment.
Si
MMA = methylmalonic acid, if it’s high it’s another clue for a need for B12
I would focus on lowering homocysteine regardless of high B12 – B12, methylfolate and vitamin B6
High Homocysteine + high B12 in blood pointed me towards getting tested for MTHFR C677T. Sent saliva sample to 23 and Me; then sent the resulting raw genetic data through MTHFR Support.com. Result: homozygous ++ for MTHFR C677T, probably one of the main causes of my progressive demyelinating disease!
Found Seeking Health forum (Dr Benjamin Lynch) and the foods and supplements to correct this situation. Keep in mind that for some with other genetic “snps” the methyl forms of folate and B12 may have side effects; you will know after a week or so if they are right for you. If methyl forms of Folate and B12 cause side effects, Folinic Acid (Folate) and a combination of Hydroxy B12 and Adenosyl B12 are effective. Best of luck!
Rosean, thanks so much. I listened to B. Lynch and will order and try his supplement. My gut feeling tells me that, yes, I will have that genetic test positive. I can not find any other explanation. I might also do the test at some point to be sure. Thank you and I wish you a good health, too.
Hi Dr Osborne,
Thanks for this information. Do you think that buckwheat
and quinoa are problematic as well? What about chia and flax and seeds like pumpkin and sunflower? I do try to soak seeds when I can but I know you don’t seem to be in favor of that. I have found a good quinoa/millet (you mentioned millet so I can take it out) recipe and would like to make it on occassion. Also, it helps to have chia for fiber and seeds as snacks. As a whole our family is trying to heal our guts. Do you personally only eat fruits, vegies, and meat? What do you think about fermented dairy?
Heather
I’ll ask Dr Osborne to come and respond
Trudy
I do not recommend the consumption of seeds or legumes in the diet as a major staple food. If you are sick and trying to recover, I recommend avoiding them altogether.
Fermented dairy during the healing process not a good idea. In my clinical experience, it typically delays recovery.
All the best,
Dr. O
Hi Dr Osborne. Do you have more info on the genetic test for gluten sensitivity? In order to convince my family about this test, are there references about the genes linking to gluten sensitivity and reliabiility of the test please.
Thank you for the great interview.
Claire
I’ll ask Dr Osborne to come and respond
Trudy
Thanks Trudy for being a SUPER blogger and answering questions. It is so helpful and quite impressive!
I think I understand from this talk that all allergens should not be consumed. However, would you or Dr Osborne or anyone who knows please explain IgE allergies. Most everyone refers to IgE severe reactions, but what if you are a 0/1 (Equivocal/Low) , 1 (Low) or 2 (Moderate) where you are not having any noticeable reactions? What happens biologically when you consume that food?
For example, if you test 0 for corn IgE but out of range for corn on CYREX IgA, IgM, IgG. What is the difference? Or test 1 for quinoa IgE but out of range on CYREX.
Also, I think leaky gut can cause food sensitivity (IgA, IgG…), but can it make you get an low IgE allergy or are we born with those?
Thank you!
Elle
I’ll ask Dr Osborne to come and respond to some of this
IgE is the immediate reaction vs the others are typically delayed reactions
Trudy
Elle,
This is a complex topic. I am tackling it in my new book, No Grain, No Pain, but in short…
IgE = Acute response
IgG, A, M = delayed response
You can be allergic to foods or environmental substances in any of the 4 ways (IgG, E, A, M) in any combination. If you are allergic via IgE but not IgG you should still avoid the food and vice versa.
Hope this helps,
Dr. Osborne
Thanks for your reply Dr. Osborne! I look forward to learning about it in your new book.
Great presentaion by Dr Osborne…first time I heard gluten was in corn…already eliminated that 30 yrs as Chris did…but have Chron’s…and what affects the gut affects the brain
I agree with Chris Rogers (5/9) comments on Dr Osborne…
It is diffiult to synthesize all this information..(.and buck the medical system with their emphasis on drugs).. I’m happy that you are supplying this…it gives me hope..
I like Chris do some drugs…but I need more help and will keep trying..I’ve always been slanted toward alternative health…as you know Trudy!
I’m glad you’re listening and it’s giving you hope Cecile!
Hi
Thanks for the replay. WOW..excellent
presentation!
Everyone diagnosed with celiac has nutrient
deficiencies.
What lab(s) offer a good B12 test and
key nutrients test to look at deficiencies?
What will help improve our ability to absorb
once the individual has eliminated glutin, dairy,
pre-packaged GF food, corn, coffee, and
other poisons from our food and water? I’m
taking L-Glutamine & Thorne BIO-GEST.
Thanks so much for your help.
Kathy
I like to see B12, MMA/methylmalonic acid and homocysteine for low B12. I do like glutamine for gut healing. Bone broths are wonderful too
Trudy
Trudy, thank you so much for replaying this interview. I would have missed it, and it will be life changing. I am ++ for HLADQA2 but didn’t realize that other grain glutens could be even more dangerous. I just went over Cyrex Labs Array 4 test today with my functional medicine doctor. I was in normal range for everything except for oats, and he suggested I need to add some of the other grains like quinoa, buckwheat, teff and amaranth for nutrients. This interview indicates that wouldn’t be a good idea. Are there nutrients that we might be missing with absolutely all grains removed? Thank you, Dr. Osburn for your free gift and for all the valuable new research.
Vernie,
Grain is not a requirement in the human diet. You will not be lacking nutrients provided you are eating a variety of vegetables, meats, fruits, and nuts. Ensure you get enough fiber through your vegetable intake.
All the best,
Dr. Osborne
1.I was wondering if Dr. Osborne uses the LEAP MRT (mediator-release testing) that measures several immune responses instead of just IgG and if he thinks it is useful to identify food sensitivities. I’ve been told it is more accurate than ALCAT testing.
2.Maybe this should be for Dr. Lynch, but I was wondering what lab test he does for Vit B 12 in someone with the MTHFR gene, as I have heard that if B12 is within normal range on the regular vit B12 blood test, it is also measuring non-methylated Vit B12 which the body can’t use. Thus, the person may still be too low in Vit B12.
3.Also I was wondering if he recommends SpectraCell lab, which measures “intercellular” instead if “blood” nutrient levels to test for micronutrient deficiencies?
Hi Ruth
I’ll see if Dr Osborne can come and comment on 1 and 2. I do know he likes and uses SpectraCell testing
Trudy
I don’t like LEAP MRT. It doesn’t hold up to blind scrutiny. I use a technology called ELISA ACT. It measures type II, III, and IV delayed reactions.
Measure B12 via Spectracell. Trudy is also spot on with homocysteine and MMA.
All the best,
Dr. Osborne
The Summit is fantastic – many thanks! There’s one additional issue that no one is paying attention to these days – Non-Gluten AND Organic. It’s very difficult to find food that’s both!
The herbicide that’s used in GMO agriculture, Glyphosate, is now used on most non-Organic crops as well. Glyphosate is an FDA-registered antibiotic that does no favors to our good gut bacteria. In the healthy-food stores in my neighborhood, Bob’s Red Mill has a virtual monopoly on packaged grains and grain substitutes.
I react to Gluten, and the Bob’s Red Mill (certified) Gluten-Free rolled oats do not work in my body, while his Organic rolled oats work just fine – and I bet the difference is that he’s using Glyphosate-contaminated non-Organic oats to create his Gluten-Free rolled oats. The only way to avoid Glyphosate is to select only Organic food, and it’s very difficult to find both Organic AND Gluten-Free foods.
Of course the answer is to stop eating anything the comes in a package, but it’s difficult enough to convince people that reaction to either Gluten OR Glyphosate is anything other than paranoia, and completely futile to convince anyone to stop eating packaged food!
Do you know that there is now an official psychiatric disorder that can be assigned to people who seek only healthy food – Orthorexia nervosa!
So one possible interim solution is to convince the commercial makers of Non-Gluten foods to start making ORGANIC NON-GLUTEN foods! In my experience they’ll complain first that people won’t be able to afford it, to which we need to say – “How do you know if you haven’t tried it?” Second they’ll complain that the can’t find the supply, to which we need so say – “This is supposed to be a free-market economy; if there’s no supply it’s because there’s no demand, which means you haven’t tried!”
Jim
Thanks for posting on this important issue! we have covered glyphosate in season 1 (https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/roundup-toxic-anxiety-autism-celiac-disease/) and yes big issue!
I hear you on the Orthorexia – a little crazy if you ask me!
Trudy
Fantastic that you’ve covered Glyphosate already! I’ll pass that information along (with your note). Many thanks, Trudy!
Teff is a Grass, but Quinoa, Buckwheat, and Amaranth as seeds rather than grains, since they aren’t in the Grass Family. Do they have potential to act in the body like Gluten?
Scratch that comment on Teff and Seeds; I see Dr. Osborne already answered it. Thanks!!
Hi there,
Thanks for the great interview.
It was mentioned that Schizophrenia used to be known as bread madness and I am just curious about this as I didn’t think we used to have issues with bread as we do now as it seems so much more processed now with more gluten added. Bread used to go through more of a fermentation process and most breads tended to be more like sourdoughs with most of the gluten fermented out. Did they really have the same issues or were they related to something different?
Thanks,
Susan
Hi Trudy,
Can you please send me the link to the video or audio lecture on how to heal a leaky gut that you are Dr. Osborne mentioned during your interview with him. It was a bonus link and Dr. Osborn mentioned that this was on his site that was extra support of actually steps and recommendations to healing a leaky gut.
Thanks so much.
A big thank you to Dr. Osborne for sharing what he has learned about grains through keeping up with the latest research and through his years of clinical practice, especially for telling us the studies about corn and other grains that have been largely ignored by other medical professionals and the gluten free industry. I’m glad he cares more about helping people get well than about winning a popularity contest, since it seems a lot of people don’t want to hear this or to let it be heard. I’ve learned so much, and have been able to switch my mindset from how to treat symptoms to how to look for and treat the origins of my problems. This has really transformed my thinking and my life!
I’m still rather new to all this and some days it seems so hard to eat healthy, especially surrounded by people who don’t understand why you bring your own food (or don’t eat) at the various events that seem to be centered around food so often. But listening to these summits and having access to so many resources from the speakers is so encouraging, reminding me of why I’m doing this and that I’m not alone in trying to live this out, and giving me more understanding of what I ought to do. So thank you Dr. Osborne and thank you, Trudy, for providing all this information and support!
Trudy, you have done an excellent job hosting! You are so transparent and speak from the heart, and you do a great job of asking the right questions and getting the speakers to go deeper or clarify things they have said to help us to understand. I love the overviews/summaries that you give us as well. This is also one of the few summits that give us audio rather than just video, which is especially great when listening on the go and using up your phone data plan. Bravo for the Anxiety Summit!
Is there a resource available that could correlate any cross reactivity to various plant based super foods?
Fabulous interview. i thought I knew alot about gluten issues, but learned so much from this.
2 questions”
Dr. Osborne says don’t eat any grains, but he did not mention rice. Is rice even O.K. to eat? How does he feel about guinoa and amaranth?
Which specific test does Dr. O recomment for testing nutrient deficiency – what labs? Does 23 and me testing have any of the markers he looks for?
Thank you, Trudy & Dr. O for this replay and for all your dedication & hard work!
I have a question about Vit B12. My blood labs show elevated B12, but I feel fatigue and other deficiency symptoms. Can you explain why someone can test high but still need B!2 and how can B12 be more bioavailable? I eat liver on occasion and have purchased liposomal active B12 from Seeking Health that I had hoped would help, but my last labs showed B12 at 1645. My Dr says I need to stop eating liver and taking B12, but I am skeptical. I have posted this question to Dr Lynch as well but have not had it answered yet.
Thanks so much!
Karaina
Re: Dr. Osborne’s comment about where nutrients come from if you give up grains (which I have pretty much done since I went mostly paleo):
What if you are on diets for candida, mold, histamine, oxalates, malabsorption, and, of course, gluten free and are hypoglycemic, osteoporotic, can’t gain weight and probably have SIBO. I soak and dehydrate nuts, which were my go-to food, but now I am not supposed to eat those either. I’m running out of food, and many of my vegetables are also on the no-no lists. Needless to say, this is very anxiety-producing.
When the genetic/DNA tests are done for gluten sensitivity/intolerance, does ANYONE ever test “negative”?