William J. Walsh, PhD, FACN, author of Nutrient Power, was interviewed on the Anxiety Summit by host of the Anxiety Summit, Trudy Scott, Food Mood Expert and Nutritionist, author of The Antianxiety Food Solution.
Is My Anxiety and Depression from a Methylation, Pyrrole, or Copper-Zinc Imbalance?
- Neurotransmitters: how they are synthesized, transported and broken down.
- Biochemical individuality and incidences of imbalances of copper, B6 and zinc.
- Biotypes of depression, methylation disorders and whole blood histamine, and pyrrole disorder (pyroluria)
- Copper-zinc imbalance and post-partum depression
- Testing in blood and urine
Here are some gems from our interview:
Copper and estrogen are related and I’ve seen probably 400 cases of postpartum depression. Virtually all of them have a copper overload. These are people who might have been on SSRI antidepressants and with nothing really happening not making them better or worse. But if we are able to simply normalize their copper most of them become completely okay and you can throw away their medications. They’re the easiest people to help.
Well with respect to the females if a person has an anxiety disorder or a depression disorder and we find out that the onset was at puberty we kind of expect that the lab results are going to show this is a copper problem because at hormonal events copper levels tend to go awry if you’re not able to regulate your copper. So it can happen at puberty. It can happen at childbirth. And it can happen at menopause. During the nine months of a pregnancy a women’s copper level more than doubles. And this is necessary for that growing fetus. It’s necessary for something called angiogenesis to promote the rapid development of blood vessels that that little growing baby needs. And at the end of a pregnancy a woman’s copper level is usually more than double what it normally is. A woman normally would be around 100 micrograms per deciliter in her blood. Maybe it would be 220 at the end of a pregnancy.
Well right after the baby’s born that copper level is supposed to start heading right back down to normal. Well people with postpartum depression don’t have that ability and this can completely disrupt two of the major neurotransmitters and misery sometimes for the rest of their lives. But the way we would bring it down, you have to do it carefully because they’re already suffering from too much copper levels in their brain and in their bloodstream so we have to remove the copper gently and gradually. And one way to do that is to give them small doses of zinc initially and then just gradually build up the doses to the full dose it takes to normalize their zinc which will then automatically get the natural metallothionein system working. And it takes about six to eight weeks usually. But it can be done and it can be done without any discomfort for the patient if it’s done slowly.
I enjoyed hearing how Dr. Walsh got to work with one of the great pioneers in orthomolecular mental health, Dr. Carl Pfeiffer, author of Nutrition and Mental Illness: An Orthomolecular Approach to Balancing Body Chemistry, and creator of the first pyroluria questionnaire. I based my pyroluria questionnaire off this one. Dr. Walsh has done the same thing.
Towards the end of the interview we discussed undermethylation and overmethylation and the confusion about MTHFR and terminology. I made reference to this blog post from a prior summit – Methylation and anxiety: histadelia and histapenia and the interview with Dr. Ben Lynch – How Methylfolate can make you Feel Worse and even Cause Anxiety, and What to do about it
The takeaway from this discussion is this:
If a person had undermethylated depression they have low serotonin activity. If you gave these people methylfolate their methylation would improve and the patient would get worse.
So basically I agree completely with Dr. Lynch on the best way to improve methylation and all I’m saying is that for some people, people who have problems of neurotransmission of serotonin you can’t give them folates because they’ll get worse. So that’s an exception to the general rule.
So it is these people who are the undermethylators (and using the original terminology, those with high histamine or histadelia) that do worse on folate.
Dr. Walsh agreed that the terminology undermethylation and overmethyation is confusing.
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Absolutely fascinating interview. Just got to 17 min so far…..
Thank you so much for having Dr. Walsh on as a speaker, Trudy. It is always informative to hear him talk about methylation and its relationship to mental health and your questions in all the interviews are so insightful.
I was wondering your opinion about which biotype I would be based on my lab testing and symptomatic presentation. It would be wonderful if Dr. Walsh could comment if he is able.
– My SAM:SAH ratio on a Doctor’s Data test was normal (I was off all supplements for a month before taking it)
– I have a mildly positive kryptopyrrole test through pyroluriatesting.com, indicating pyroluria, and have responded positively to some extent to the pyroluria protocol although I am taking huge doses (180 mg zinc/day, 44 mg P5P/day, 250mg pyridoxine HCl/day, 5.2g/day evening primrose oil, Seeking Health multimineral)
– On conventional lab tests through Quest Diagnostics, I tested with high mercury in my blood and high aluminum and lead in my urine (all slightly outside of the normal reference range – however, I was doing infrared saunas at the time so maybe this accelerated my rate of heavy metal excretion)
– On Genova NutraEval, I had the marker for low serotonin
– Compound heterozygous (one SNP at each) for MTHFR at A1298C and C677T loci
– adverse response to SSRI (Zoloft) taken for one month at age 20 – caused suicidal ideation
– diagnosed with hyperadrenergic POTS (postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome) secondary to Ehlers Danlos Syndrome at the Cleveland Clinic via tilt table tests and electrophysiology studies – my blood levels of norepinephrine and dopamine were high at rest and also after exertion (walking around at leisurely pace for half an hour) however I’m not sure how reflective these are of brain levels. For years I had constant adrenaline rushes, flushing, and drenching sweats; but years later after finally getting on Armour for Hashimoto’s, following an autoimmune paleo diet, and working on adrenals I no longer get orthostatic hypotension and the adrenaline rushes and sweats are less frequent (although temperature dysregulation is still significant). Instead of a constant feeeling of fight or flight/hypervigilance I have more of fatigue and low cortisol symptoms. My 24 hour salivary cortisol test showed my cortisol was normal in morning but low at all other points throughout the day.
– Undermethylation symptoms predominate – depression, social anxiety, night terrors/nightmares, perfectionism, OCD-like tendencies, seasonal affective disorder, strong willed, allergies
– estrogen dominance, low DHEA, low testosterone, low relative progesterone (I’m 28 year old female – discontinued birth control at age 26 after taking it for years). Taking DIM/I3C to detoxify excess estrogen.
– No response to trials of Orthomolecular 5HTP or Pure Encapsulations GABA. Still have recurring nightmares, rumination, generalized anxiety and social anxiety after pyroluria protocol for 1.5-2 years although social anxiety somewhat improved.
– High whole blood histamine (slightly outside of reference range according to Dr. Walsh’s criteria). Also diagnosed with mast cell activation disorder (high chromagranin A, anaphylactic episodes to high histamine foods before changing diet and working on gut healing). Good response to DAO supplementation.
– Gut issues I’m still working on (SIBO, Candida, FODMAP intolerance, celiac disease)
– Other systemic autoimmune diseases (Hashi’s, lupus, Raynaud’s, interstitial cystitis)
– indirect markers for Lyme (low CD57 natural killer cell count, Mycoplasma pneumoniae infection)
Also, I was wondering how you monitor too much B6. I have scary nightmares most nights so have stayed on relatively high doses of B6 but I worry about neuropathy. I have tingling in my fingers and toes and they occasionally turn white or blue, but I also have Raynaud’s phenomenon so it’s difficult to distinguish what is causing this. How long is it safe to supplement with high levels of zinc? What tests do you do to monitor zinc levels besides zinc tally?
Thank you, Trudy! I apologize for the long question but I so respect your clinical and professional opinion and experience and would love your take. It is so generous of you to reply to everyone’s questions. Thanks for another excellent summit.
Other notes – I am taking 4 mg/day of copper along with the 180 mg/day zinc and have been for two months now. I had a severe case of cellulitis/folliculitis and my functional medicine doctor recommended the high dose zinc for tissue integrity and the copper to balance it out. Before that I was taking 60-120mg/zinc a day for three years without copper. Another thing my naturopath had mentioned at one time is that he thought I was metallothionein deficient, perhaps based on my SNPs through 23&me. Is it possible for all these biotypes to overlap? If so, which supplements would be best? Would methyl donors be needed or contraindicated in my case? Here are my results below of the pyroluria test through Direct Health Care Access Inc.
PROCEDURE KRYPTOPYRROLE (URINE) CORRECTED** (CALCULATED)
RESULT: 12.14 HIGH
PROCEDURE: KRYPTOPYRROLE (URINE) UNCORRECTED (ACTUAL)
RESULT: 6.43
Optimal Range 0-9 mcg/dl
Ali
I’m afraid we can’t help via the blog with specific questions like this. Your best best will be a consult with Dr Walsh or one of his practitioners.
I would be cautious about too much vitamin B6 and neuropathy
Is Dr. Walsh sharing his comprehensive and compelling research in specific ways to help people (government officials, policymakers, doctors, law enforcement officials, social workers, therapists, etc.) make the links between violent and aggressive behaviors and nutrient deficiencies? It sure would be timely to blanket the media with this valuable information!
Julie
He does doctor training and speaks at medical conferences.
Someone from him team may be able to share what else he does in terms of outreach
I agree, it would be wonderful to blanket the media with this – do you have any contacts?
Is copper level influenced mostly by foods & supplements? or can external exposure like holding copper coins also absorbed by cells? Is there any article or resource to read more about what causes copper in excess?
Copper is an essential trace mineral that’s found throughout the body. High copper overloads tend to lower dopamine levels and increase norepinephrine in the brain. Imbalances in these important neurotransmitters have been associated with anxiety, postpartum depression, ADHD, autism, violent behavior, paranoid schizophrenia and bipolar disorder.
Based on studies of 2,800 depressed patients, William J. Walsh, Ph.D., indicated that 17% exhibited elevated copper levels. The vast majority of these persons are women, with the first episode of depression typically occurring during a hormonal event such as puberty, childbirth, or menopause.
Elevated copper levels can be inherited genetically or from environmental exposure (epigenetics). Copper is found in our water supply (copper pipes), copper cookware, swimming pools, and certain foods such as chocolate and shellfish. Copper is also found in birth control such the copper IUD.
Specialized laboratory testing from an experienced physician is recommended to diagnose copper overload. Targeted Nutrient Therapy is prescribed at the appropriate therapeutic level to reduce copper levels
based upon individual’s biochemistry. Water filtration is recommended to minimize copper intake from water. Avoidance of copper-rich foods and copper containing supplements is also suggested.
Here are a few helpful links on copper:
http://www.judytsafrirmd.com/copper-toxicity-and-psychiatric-conditions/
http://www.courtneysnydermd.com/blog/copper-overload-too-much-of-a-good-thing3
http://www.mensahmedical.com/copper-overload/
http://samanthagilbert.com/copper/
To find a practitioner in your area, please visit our website:
http://www.walshinstitute.org/clinical-resources.html
Hi Trina,
In addition to the great info above, there are quite a number of other foods that contain Copper..however one of the biggest issues with Copper toxicity or build up, is in the actual cells, not the blood or other liquids they may test. Cellular Biochemistry imbalance is at the root of why people are not getting well.
Our bodies tend to store excess Copper when stress is a factor, stress from anything from Emotional, to Physical to Heavy Metals and other Chemical exposures…and so much more.
Hi Trudi
I wondered if you know of or can recommend labs in the UK for the testing discussed in Dr Walsh’s talk.
Thanks
The Olive Tree Clinic (Dr. Goldspink)
Also DHA Laboratories international program (www.DHALAB.com)
Hi,
WOW!! What an interesting interview! Love it!!
One question thou Dr Walsh talks about copper overload in females being more prevalent because of estrogen dominance (Not his words i know, correct me if i got that wrong)
When you are born with being under or over methalayted, and going through hormonal change in life how can that present itself and how do you correct two different biological systems?
A person’s methylation status is established in the womb and this tendency usually persists throughout life. Epigenetic or environmental insults can produce deviant marks in the womb or later in life, and this is the cause of many physical and mental disorders. This is why prescribed nutrient therapy (therapeutic dosages of vitamins, minerals and amino acids) is not a temporary fix but a long-term treatment.
Learn more about epigenetics: http://www.walshinstitute.org/epigenetics.html
Hormonal events such as puberty, childbirth, or menopause, may trigger an onset of depression due to estrogen. As estrogen levels rise, copper also rises (particularly under the circumstances of estrogen dominance and/or the use of birth control pills or hormone replacement therapy).
We recommend working with an experienced physician who understands how to diagnose and treat complex biochemical conditions. To find a practitioner, please visit: http://www.walshinstitute.org/clinical-resources.html
Enjoyed the talk very much. My son is basically nonfunctional currently so this has given me some ideas. Thanks!
Dr. Walsh is 80% sure one has low zinc with low alk phos but what about the other 20%? my zinc plasma is not low, so what else could cause it? my son, mom and I all have chronic low alk phos but no one as yet can tell us what the issue is or where to look–maybe it’s normal for us?
I’m 25 minutes into Dr. Walsh’s session and I am in tears and ANGRY! After having issues since childhood, and decades on SSRIs (which I can’t be sure they were even the correct med for me to begin with), having seen many doctors, NO ONE ever had me do blood tests to figure out what was actually going on with me biochemically! I am outraged that I have to spend hundreds of hours of my time reading, trying to figure things out on my own. In 25 minutes Dr. Walsh has summed up the causes of anxiety and depression and now I know that if only I could find a knowledgeable practitioner, there would be hope for me. The problem is I am in KY and I haven’t yet been able to find the right person to help me. I may have to travel. If anyone has suggestions, please let me know!
Some do it over the phone look up Dr.David Clark on youtube or fb!
I found him, thank you for sharing!
Hi Donna,
Since 2008, Dr. Walsh has trained more than 400 physicians in advanced nutrient therapy protocols for the treatment of autism, learning/behavioral and mental disorders. To find a practitioner in your area, please visit our website: http://www.walshinstitute.org/clinical-resources.html
Dana, I found one! I can’t believe it, thank you!
I am working with Mensah Medical long distance. I discovered them through a different talk by Dr. Walsh where he recommended them. I now work with thier nutritionist Samantha Gilbert. Finally an answer after postpartum psychosis. I cried too…but with gratitude this time. I love this man for his work. Blessings on your path!
Karen, that is great news! Did you have to see them in person for your first visit?
Donna
Sorry to make you upset and angry but we also empowered you so that’s a good thing! Glad you’ve found someone to work with
Trudy, knowledge is power, thank you! This summit will help change lives! ♥
I may be late to this discussion, but I just took my son to Dr. Courtney Snyder in KY, and she has studies under Dr. Walsh.
Devorah, I am aware of her and am considering her practice, but I haven’t found patients of hers who I can ask their impressions of her and her services. Can you give me some insight? Is she knowledgable about methylation, pyrroles, and neurotransmitters? I’ve now done testing and have found that I need help with all of those! Does she have any videos or podcasts where I could get a “feel” for her and her work? TIA!
We did mail testing through hdl labs inChicago. 400 dollars beats 1500 which wound be serif Dr. Mensah in person(which has def advantages of it is financially possible).
Hi Bettina, did you have a phone consultation with Dr. Mensah? Why does it cost $1500 to see him in person? Yikes! I definitely cannot afford that. Is that just for the visit or is testing included in the price?
Really excellent and informative interview with Dr. Walsh. I am an undermethylator with mthfr mutations (homozygous C677tmthfr among others). I also read Dr. Lynch’s materials and was really interested to hear the evolving thoughts on who is helped by folate and who isnt. I am more confused, but know to investigate further now. Very valuable interview! He does a good job of explaining complicated topics.
Debbie
I’m glad you enjoyed it and found the Dr Lynch discussion interesting – we all have so much to learn
Trudy, have you ever heard of someone having spleen area swelling/discomfort when following a pyroluria treatment? Dr. Walsh mentioned pyroluria involves the spleen. Can you explain this?
Is there a site that lists Drs. who can treat pyroluria?
Hi Dawn,
Since 2008, Dr. Walsh has trained more than 400 physicians in advanced nutrient therapy protocols for the treatment of pyroluria, methylation disorders, copper/zinc imbalance, toxic metal overload, and other biochemical imbalances. To find a doctor in your area, please visit our website: http://www.walshinstitute.org/clinical-resources.html
Dawn
To answer your spleen question – no I have not
To answer your question regarding the spleen and pyroluria. Spleen-area pain was first observed by Carl Pfeiffer, MD, PhD, in his study of schizophrenics with severe pyrrole disorder. This symptom was rarely found in other forms of schizophrenia. Most of the body’s pyrroles are byproducts of reactions in the bone marrow or spleen. Several studies have reported a high incidence of enlarged spleen in persons diagnosed with schizophrenia.
And I forgot to add that many non-schizophrenia patients with very elevated Kp levels have reported classic spleen-area pain.
Hi Trudy, Thank you for interviewing Dr. Walsh. I have read his book and put so many bookmarks in it that it is comical. His work is extremely important. My brother was a patient of the Brain Bio Center in its early years. He was successfully treated, for which my parents were very grateful. The epigenetic factor in his life was the trauma of contracting polio from the sugar cube vaccine. It changed his life immeasurably and he suffered. Of course, genetic testing was not available then, but I now realize that my mother and sister and I, along with our children, are all undermethylators with varying expressions of symptoms. To know that there is help is very reassuring, however, New York state is slow to acknowledge the benefits from this field of analysis. It is very difficult to find practitioners in New York upstate who can accomplish all the required testing. Thank you for again for this informative interview.
Carol
Thanks for sharing and so glad you enjoyed it
Carol, try looking in neighboring states, such as PA if you are on that side of NY..CT is very good.
Trudy, I have understood everything that was discussed except for that part at about 1:01:30 where Dr. Walsh talks about a person who has undermethylated depression and low serotonin activity and are given methylfolate which improves their methylation but they would get worse. He said you would promote serotonion reuptake and that’s not what they need. Which I can understand in a way because people take serotonin reuptake INHIBITORS. But I thought improved methylation was the goal as well? Can you explain this in a different way so that I can understand? And what supplements are used to get these people proper methylation and the serotonin they need?
Hi Trudy,
I’d really like to understand this better too. I hope you’ll have time to get to Donna’s question when you get caught up:)
Dawn, I’m glad you are confused as well 😉 I will try to post this again.
How amazing…….I had a child with 1500 bone alkaline phosphotase, no leukaemia, breastfed nearly 3 years, born 7.4 lbs, straight off the bottom the charts at 51/2 months never could find out what was wrong. he is a genius with violent tendencies. PLEASE where I do find some of Dr Walsh’s papers that I can hand to medics as we are talking largely old-guard reactionary here in Perth WA. Any decent labs in Australia? I would also love some stuff on his methylation. I have just ordered his book Nutirent Power.
Dr Cullingford is in Perth and she is trained in this stuff. Histamine can be tested through Clinipath and SAFE labs in QLD test for Pyroluria. Clinipath handle the testing and shipping to QLD. Good luck with it all. Hard to find help but there are a few people around who have been trained by Dr Walsh.
Hi
Have a look at Biobalance Australia http://www.biobalance.org.au/ There are practitioners lists.
All the best
Hi Trudy,
Thank you so much for this interview and for your astute questions – I agree with many others who have commented similarly.
My question is about copper testing. What is the most accurate way of testing copper levels? My son’s blood tests show low copper but his hair mineral analysis showed his copper levels through the roof! He had started a protocol for pyroluria (urine test confirmed) and the nutrition doctor would check his copper every 3 months (?) with a blood test (ceruloplasmin I think – not sure if anything else as well) – whenever he was about to run out of his compounded nutrients that he prescribed. So he was given high doses of zinc but then also copper, which he would guess the amount for (he used some kind of chart or something. After a long time, my son developed an eye infection. Zinc was never tested for (only the taste test in the beginning) but I was worried that his nutrient levels weren’t being monitored enough and I thought the eye infection may have something to do with what he was taking so we got off them. (I also have pyroluria but my son’s level was higher.) Also, each of our appts were about writing a new script and I wanted it to be also about our overall health, including. digestion issues.
What is the best way to MONITOR the nutrient levels in pyroluria, esp. with regard to zinc and copper?
Thanks Trudy.
Kind Regards,
Sylvia
B6 (and B3) can accumulate and cause toxicity. I started the zinc, b6, EPO protocol after last year’s anxiety summit. At first I felt less anxiety. But after a few months of supplementing 1 Solaray Optizinc + around 10 mg P5P daily I started having nerve toxicity in my spine+. Tested serum B6. Levels were high out of range and it is taking months to clear.
Listening to this interview with Dr. Walsh helped confirm that my issues were a combo of mercury, copper overload & zinc deficiency and possibly a temporary case of pyroles from oxidative stress (and mold) but not hereditary pyrole disorder. Glad to have this new info!
Dear Elle,
I too was supplementing with B6 and B3 and became toxic with them! Which interview are you referring to in which Dr. Walsh stated that these issues can sometimes be mercury, copper mold etc leading to temporary Oxidative Stress but not genetic pyroles disorder?
Warm regards,
Cian
Hi Trudy,
I am new to your wonderful site and Dr. Walsh and I am so grateful for the interview today! Im fairly certain I have metal metabolism disorder/copper zinc imbalance, Im not sure after listening today if I over/under methylate but I am homozygous a1298c and have tested low gaba and serotonin in past and suffer from anxiety and depression and ocd. I am also fairly certain I have Pyrrole disorder-answered yes to 15 on your questionnaire.
Do I have this right for testing:
serum copper, plasma zinc- for metal metabolism disorder
Whole blood histamine OR SAmE SAH- for determining over/under methylation
Then pyrrole urine test
Anything else?
Im not sure where to start or if I should just do all of them at once. Do you have recommendations for the labs? Im weighing whether to spend $ I dont have on one of the walsh practitioners or if these are something I can order and interpret easily enough on my own.
Any direction or guidance you can give me is greatly appreciated. Its important for me to have accurate testing because I am also dealing with Lyme disease and want to make sure I am taking only what is necessary.
Hi Anne,
We recommend the metabolic panel which includes Kryptopyrrole Urinary Quantitative, Copper Serum, Zinc Plasma and Whole Blood Histamine.
http://www.pyroluriatesting.com/shop/metabolic-panel-test-consultation/
The Doctor’s Data Methylation Profile test:
https://www.doctorsdata.com/methylation-profile-plasma/
PLEASE NOTE: Laboratory results require the interpretation of an experienced physician who understands how to diagnose and treat complex biochemical conditions. To find a practitioner, please visit: http://www.walshinstitute.org/clinical-resources.html
Hi Dana,
I am just confirming – is it most accurate to have both the DD methylation profile and the metabolic panel at pyroluria testing done? Or is one enough? I am also wondering if you can comment whether a fasting plasma homocysteine can tell us anything about over/under methylation. I am in Canada so these tests are not so readily available.
thanks so much,
Heidi
Doona if youfollow the link to the Walsh institute it has a list of the docs he has trained. What was teh doc he mentioned from autism at 1hr 2 mins sounded like dr BedLynch?
Dr. Ben Lynch..you can see all his lectures on YouTube.
Thank you Dr Walsh and Trudy !! My husband has bipolar and addiction; was introduced to pot age 13 and smoked pretty much off and on, got in trouble for it; was fine, temptation, is on again.. 🙁 late 20’s got bipolar diagnose, seems could be from pot ? where can I find right Dr for him? we are in Daytona Beach FL.
THANK YOU.
Hi Romy – To find an experienced doctor in your area, please visit our website: http://www.walshinstitute.org/clinical-resources.html
Fantastic interview – Thanks!
1) Apart from the 6-8 weeks that Dr Walsh mentioned it would take to correct the zinc/ copper imbalance, how long does it take to correct the other biochemistry issues which lead to the various types of anxiety and depression, which he mentioned.
2) Where is there specific information about his work on Alzheimer’s.
Nutrient therapy response times greatly vary depending on patient’s age, the type of biochemical imbalance, and the severity. Dr. Walsh’s clinical findings are outlined in his book “Nutrient Power: Heal Your Biochemistry and Heal Your Brain.”
I have Dr Walsh’s book and I realize there would be a big difference in patient clinical response times, what I meant was – if the brain has the correct nutrients, how long for methylation cycles or neurotransmitters to normalize? Can you give me time ranges? Thanks
Thank you for yet another great interview! Very informative, a lot to digg into.
One question:
Testing histamine in whole blood require avoidance of antihistamine treatments prior to testing. Would that include all kind of mast cell stabilizing supplements, hig dozes of vitamin C, in addition of antihistamin medication?
Thank you so much finally I have an explaination for the reason why I react to both folate and SAMe supplements……….just now need to find what will now help as my health is deteriorating. …….low GABA and a large number of snps seem to be my next piece…….as the GABA supplements don’t seem to be working. Brilliant interview,summit and another piece added to my unique jigsaw! Thankyou again x
Andree
Glad to hear you’re getting answers. I’d love hear more about what GABA supplements you tried and how you took them? and your feedback after you listen to my GABA presentation https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/gaba-blood-brain-barrier-trial-anxiety/
Hi Trudy, have just listen to your GABA talk and it is amazing info. I have been on along journey to this point and understanding how my body functions so much better however each time I try something it seems to effect another mechanism. If I may I will contact you in a weeks time when all has calmed down for you and explain my situation.
Just as a thought I have thyroid issues which you mentioned would effect the GABA uptake. Please could you explain further? Thank you again for all your enthusiasm and hard work. It’s gratefully appreciated.
Andree
Glad you enjoyed it – please feel free to comment further on the GABA blog too https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/gaba-blood-brain-barrier-trial-anxiety/
The amino acids are less effective when the thyroid is underactive
Hello Trudy,
I am trying to sort out pyroluria versus copper/zinc problems without pyroluria.
I understand that with pyroluria, there is loss of B6 and zinc and that with loss of zinc there is likely a buildup of copper. I also understand that the nutrient fix is to supplement with B6 and zinc but to do so gradually as supplementing with zinc can cause copper dump symptoms….again with the loss of zinc in pyroluria there can be an elevation of copper levels.
I understand that many of us carry too much copper and not enough zinc.
Zinc deficiency is common as is copper toxicity. I am trying to determine the best method of testing to identify the actual trigger or root cause: is one zinc deficient which causes low zinc and high copper OR does one have too high copper which pulls down zinc OR does one have pyroluria which leads to loss of B6 and zinc thereby letting copper elevate?
You do an excellent job of cautioning that there can be false negatives with urine testing for pyroluria and your questionnaires are very helpful in trying to sort out symptoms and nutrient needs. I am looking to identify which blood tests would be worthwhile to provide some additional insight into one’s biochemistry regarding zinc, copper, metal metabolism disorder, other. I am wondering if for example plasma zinc, serum copper and serum ceruloplasmin would lead to identification of whether the root or primary cause is zinc deficiency, copper excess, metal metabolism disorder or pyroluria. With zinc and copper, it seems there are “chicken versus egg” aspects in trying to determine what really is cause and what really is effect.
Thank you for a great summit and for all your wisdom, knowledge and guidance! And thanks to you, Dr.Walsh and others for all you do in making the world a healthier place!
Hi Liz,
I have been working with Biochemistry especially Cooper Toxicity issues since 2000 with clients and have found over the last especially 10 years the effect of EMF on our cells and toxic load is devastating to the utlilization and detoxification of Copper and all Heavy Metals, but due to the continuous stress response toward EMF, I have seen a massive amount of Alarm Stage BioChemical presentation in Hair Tests especially.
We all need EMF protection in order to allow our BioChemistry to have a fighting chance to return to normal. Kedzi
Kedzi,
Are you a medical practitioner with website where all your findings about EMF effect are posted? I have been studying EMF health effects since 2006 & have found GIA WELLNESS in CA which has 2 technologies ERT & MRET charged to cell & universal guards, car harmonzer. ERT on home harmonizer & pendants. I use all these at home & wear the pendant 24/7 due to wifi everywhere. If you need EMF protection, please email me at trinapdl9@outlook.com so I can send flyers.
Subject: EMF-protection devices since I get many emails here. I agree that even if one has the right remedies but the body is bombarded by high frequencies of MHz & Ghz, millions to billions of hertz stressing the body’s low frequencies, cells will not heal fast.The Solfeggio Scale promotes a musical scale based n 528 hz which has the ability to heal DNA per online research. MRET developed by Dr. Igor Smirnov, Russian radiation physicist. recreated the earth’s magnetic field with low frequencies by charging it to a polymer encased in plastic guards. EMF when in contact with MRET is neutralized making it safer for body. Are you saying that if EMF is not reduced, you do not see your clients heal from detoxing from heavy metals?
Dear Kedzi,
Thank you so much for your insight and guidance on the issue of EMFs.
It makes perfect sense to me that EMFs are a powerful environmental insult to our bodies and biochemistry and that EMF protection needs to be included in our healing regimens. Thanks again!!
Thanks Liz,
It is a massive epidemic..there is an APP that will now show how much EMF is in your immediate environment..it is called ARCHTIECTURE OF RADIO..costs 2.99….it’s great for extra sensitive people to be able to avoid or reduce exposure for prolinged periods.
It would be nice to hear from you if you need more info… My first name @ AOL
Thank you Trudy – very interesting (the parts I understood),it seems that I suffer from under methylation, as I suffer all the time from cronic allergies, & I had terrible croup as a baby! I have been on a SSRI, & now on SSNRI – it takes the edge off my depression, but I also have osteoparosis, & I would like to get off medication, as it effects my bones. What would help me?
I am also South African, & I would love to be tested at Dr. Walsh’s research Centre – would that be a possibility?
Hi Joy – Our non-profit organization is focused on continuing research and physician education. To find an experienced doctor in your area, please visit our website: http://www.walshinstitute.org/clinical-resources.html
Interesting Dr. Walsh mentioned a UK lab that doesn’t test for pyroluria properly. I realise he’s not going to name it, but can’t help wondering if its the one I used which gave a negative result!
Vivien
Hopefully he’ll mention it here in the comments. As you heard though it’s challenging to test for and even the good ones get it wrong
I believe the SNP under/over methylation tug of war slide Dr. Walsh referred to is at 41.42: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W14kkO61Ano. I was diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder last year and have issues on both sides but am +/+ for all bhmt. It was helpful to compare my genetics to Amy Yasko’s patient snp summary: http://dramyyasko.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/03-A1-Mutation_Breakdown.pdf. I reread this blog post to help me better understand, accept, and adapt: http://larrynewman-kirkman.blogspot.com/2011/01/how-to-support-biochemical-pathways-in.html. My local paper published my story last week http://www.valleycenter.com/news/2016-06-09/Valley_Life/Detoxing_and_eliminating_lead_helps_fight_fibromya.html
Great the blog links are now working so I can post this here… 🙂
Loved this talk, SO good, thank you, and especially relevant in light of the awful massacre in Orlando on Sunday morning. Thoughts and prayers go out to all those affected, tragic.
Great explanation on pyroluria i.e. pyrroles stripping B6 and zinc from the body. Is an organic acids test accurate for measuring zinc levels? My Alkaline Phosphatase is 47 IU/L in a range of 40 – 129 (UK). My Genova ONE organic acids test shows well above average levels for both B6 and zinc – even tho’ I have pyroluria ‘symptoms’ – I don’t think I have pyroluria, digging deeper, emotional, psychological, religious and societal abuse and stress pulls the trigger and has done for 20 years and more… There’s no supplement to balance this. My diet is 200% clean and healthy… I spend time in nature, I exercise, I rest, I try to sleep, what more is there to do…
I haven’t come across any other peeps on these summits in this niche zone, perhaps in season 5 you could explore this area of anxiety and mental illness caused by psychological abuse and homophobia… There must be a multitude like us out there who are suffering in silence. I know of many who have taken their lives under the stress and strain where there is literally no way out, no pill, no dietary change, no supplement that can truly help… One has to get rid of the root cause, how does one do that in these unique situations?
Thank you again for an awesome summit. You most certainly stand out from the crowd, it’s the sound South African work ethic which I so relate to… 😉 x
Drew
Yes our thoughts and best wishes go out to all those families
Glad you enjoyed this! I’m not sure what ONE organic acids test is using to measure B6 and zinc. They are notoriously hard to test for which is why going on symptoms is often helpful, plus other factors like low alk phos, zinc challenge taste test and dream recall (for B6).
WE do have someone in season 5 to talk on ACEs – adverse childhood events. But even with these with the right nutritional status and addressing deficiencies we should be able to heal. So much research on PTSD and low cholesterol, low vitamine D, high cortisol, low serotonin etc – so address whichever of these factors are the underlying cause in each person.
Of course therapy, social support and approaches like EMDR and neurofeedback are wonderful too. They are not covered in the Anxiety summits simply because they are not nutritional approaches but they are valuable.
Yes, EMDR and Neurofeedback seem great for my issues, I have researched them at great length along with The Listening Program and loved Erin Matlock’s public trial she did with this. I have unearthed providers of these therapies in the UK and they are on my long list to address soonest along with further biochemical testing.
It’s turned into a full time project but I’m loving it especially on good days like today where I feel well rested and calm. Last night I slept like a baby – the first time in a while and this gives me hope that I can heal and my brain can heal, if I could have a month of sleeps like last night, I’d be well on my way to healing and recovery. It’s a work in progress and I’m noting everything I tweak that works and helps and that which doesn’t…
‘Courage is grace under pressure.’ – Ernest Hemingway
Drew
Wonderful and thanks for the reminder about The Listening Program! I want to check that out too.
I wish you more and more good days and lots of hope!
Thanks Trudy for the encouragement. 🙂
GABA Calm is FINALLY in stock in the UK (woohoo!) so I have ordered a large batch so I can do a proper trial session over a number of weeks. Will keep you posted…
I’ve been testing L-Theanine (100mg 3 x a day in-between meals) since Monday with some ‘gentle’ response. Initial reactions are that the effect is mild – if I’m in a state of major stress/anxiety/panic it does nothing, if I am relatively stable I notice a further subtle calming effect, nothing groundbreaking though.
Sadly (for #lovelidtke) I’ve stopped the tryptophan because we came to the conclusion that after trialing it over many weeks, it actually made me more anxious and irritable probably due to my COMT and MAOA SNP’s (too much serotonin not being broken down) and since coming off it, sleep and irritability has actually improved! All quite confusing…
I put this message below in the comments box when I purchased the Season 4 talks. Not sure if you received it or if it just went to the vendor! So, just to be safe and in case you didn’t see it here it is:
Trudy, thank you so much for an amazing summit. It was truly a wonderful 11 days ‐ quite challenging at times
especially after the few nights that I mentioned I was battling through excruciating insomnia which made it very
difficult to focus on the interviews, and I didn’t want to fall behind, but all in all I loved every minute. I will miss hearing your lovely warm voice resounding throughout our home daily and I was quite emotional hearing you sign off for the last time on the closing call. BTW, I love the way you say ‘this is Trudy Scott signing off…’ at the end of each call. Reminds me of old radio broadcasts in Africa, wonderful.
Wishing you all the best and looking forward to Season 5 already! Bless you for all you do so enthusiastically and
graciously, you are a gem.
Drew
I’m so glad it’s arrived and you’re able to test it out well. Good to hear on the theanine and sorry to hear about the tryptophan.
I had not seen that lovely message from you so thank you for re-posting here and your very kind words!
Hi Trudy! So far doing well on Source Naturals GABA Calm and 750mg GABA. Taking 2 x GABA Calm lozenges upon waking, mid morning, mid afternoon and then a 750mg GABA at bedtime and sleep has improved. Is it ok to take this amount of GABA per day i.e. 1500mg in total?
At bed time also taking Designs for Health Magnesium Malate 360mg, Seeking Health L-Theanine 100mg and an adaptogenic night time combo including Valerian root 20%, Ashwagandha root 20%, Gotu Kola leaf, Hawthorn berry, Nutmeg fruit, Bhringaraj leaf, Fennel seed and Passiflora drops along with 2 tbsp Aloe Vera juice and this bed time combo seems to be helping well with sleep and taming the gut! Have had a longish spell of good sleep on this protocol. So relieved, hope it lasts! This seems to work better for me than tryptophan which made me irritable, angry and horrid. Wonder what this means…?
Where can I find the link for the Q & A call you recorded after the summit?
Many thanks…
Drew
Wonderful news! I’ve had many clients take that much (and more GABA). Too much can make you too tired and sometimes breathless
The Q and A audio and notes were added to the download page (and we sent a few emails)
Thanks Trudy – there’s no Q & A audio on my downloads page and I never received any emails about the Q & A, weird? This is my downloads page, am I perhaps looking at the wrong downloads page?:
Drew
I’m afraid the Q and A was only offered with the mp3 + transcript option. I removed the link since it’s only for folks who have purchased. BTW it’s best to email support@everywomanover29.com with this type of question – so we keep the blog comments to actual content and can assist tech type/admin type questions quicker via customer support
Trudy is it possible one can get a build up of GABA and then the opposite effect starts happening or one builds up a resistance to it? Had good initial results and much better sleep on 2 x GABA Calm upon waking, mid morning, mid afternoon and 1x 750mg GABA at bedtime. Worked wonders to begin with but now for the last 10 days very disturbed sleep and am awake most of the night and GABA has stopped working and I notice no effect. Gutted… We are wondering if I should stop it in case it’s making everything worse, ie mood, irritability, sleep… Thanks.
Drew
It is possible that too much of any of the amino acids can cause these symptoms – in the same way too little can. But knowing your history this seems to follow the same pattern as you have seen with other nutrients (like tryptophan) so looking for an underlying cause of this cyclical good response then bad response would be my approach
Many thanks Trudy, yes absolutely, am working on getting to grips with finding the underlying causes… Finding the right person to work with here in the UK has proved a little challenging but I am hopefully making some progress in that area… 🙂
Can you comment on homocysteine levels and how that relates to methylation? Does it show whether we are methylating properly or not?
Trudy can you comment on the above question? thanks!
How do you know if you have inheritied pyroluria or oxidative stress pyroluria?
Karen
I don’t have that answer as the oxidative stress pyroluria is new to me. I’ll try and get an answer from Dr Walsh.
At 1:03:37 (approximately) into the interview Dr. Walsh was talking about the terms of over and under methylation, but he did not get to finish what he was saying, and the conversation was turned back to Dr. Lynch. I was hoping to hear Dr. Walsh’s opinion about how we should look at over and under, as this is critical information. Can you find out from him what how he was going to elucidate on that?
Thanks very much.
Most humans have more than 1,000 SNPs or genetic mutations. There are SNPs that tend to reduce methylation and others that increase methylation. An individual’s methylation status depends on the overall combined impact of these SNPs. Identifying SNP weaknesses in MTHFR and other methylation-cycle enzymes does not necessarily mean that individual is undermethylated since there are SNPs that produce overmethylation.
Since genetic testing is qualitative and not quantitative, it is improbable
by genetic testing alone to either determine the net methylation
potential (under or overmethylation) or to guide treatment. Elevated blood histamine indicates undermethylation and low histamine is evidence of overmethylation.
Primary Causes of Undermethylation:
• Undermethylation usually results from SNPs that weaken MTHFR or other enzymes in the methylation cycle in utero prior to birth.
• Enzyme Mutations (SNPs) in Methylation Cycle (MTHFR, MS, COMT, just to name a few…)
• Histamine Overload
• Protein Deficiency or Malabsorption
Primary Causes of Overmethylation:
• Overmethylation is generally caused by enzyme weaknesses (SNPs) in the SAMe utilization pathways.
• Impaired Creatine Synthesis
• AGAT or GAMT SNP’s
• Arginine or Glycine Deficiency
• Impaired Cystathionine Synthesis (CBS SNP)
• Methyltransferase SNPs
To learn more, watch “The Role of Methylation and Epigenetics in Brain Disorders” – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W14kkO61Ano
Dana:
I was tested with Mensah Medical in 2014.
Histamine was 61 in a reference range of 12-127.
Copper was 82, range: 72-166.
Plasma zinc: 85, range 56-134.
On 4/29/16:
Copper 82
Zinc 81; on this one, I don’t know if it was Plasma or Zinc
I have a LOT of chronic issues and varied opinions from my practitioners about whether I need to address my two 1298 mutations. I have Cytochrome P450 problems and COMT from a Genova DeTox Genomics test in 2005, which they don’t do anymore. I have 23andMe but do not know whether there is an answer there about why I am still so ill with all the work I have done over 17 years.
Can you shed any light on my situation and/or suggest what path I should take next. I’m 67 and very tired.
Thanks so much.
HI Lynne – I cannot comment on specific health issues or give medical advice. However, the labs you listed did not provide a % free copper level. You should be evaluated for possible copper overload since it can manifest itself into the form of chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, depression, etc.
Since 2014, Dr. Walsh also recommends the Doctor’s Data Methylation Profile test to determine one’s methylation status (under or overmethylation). You could request this test from Mensah Medical and they will know how to interpret it.
Thanks, Dana. I want to be sure I am clear about this because my tests in 2014 were done through Direct Health and Mensah Medical. Are you saying that they would not have done a “% free copper level”? (I certainly don’t know anything about that test). If I ask Mensah to redo this, would the Doctor’s Date Meth. Profile take care of the copper question?
Mensah told me I was neither under or over methylated but they did put me on methyl folate. I did not improve and may have responded negatively, as I often do. I was also told I do not have pyrolle disorder. After listening to Dr. Walsh’s interview and how that test can be incorrect, I’m wondering if any of my results from 2014 and early 2015 are accurate.
Many, many thanks.
Drs. Mensah and Bowman would have checked your % free copper level back in 2014. Since it often correlates with chronic fatigue and you mentioned your were tired, it would be important to know whether or not you have copper overload.
The Doctor’s Data Methylation Profile is a newer test for practitioners and often provides a better understanding for methylation status (over or undermethylation). Yes, pyroluria test results can sometimes yield false negatives or false positives. Labs may need to be repeated especially if pyroluric symptoms are present.
Lynne
I’ll try and find out for you
I tried to make a NEW comment on the end of Dr. Walsh’s talk, but the program immediately decided I had said that before (I had not), and would not take my comment.
Did you get to make the comment?
Yes. Then my last comment was posted.
Thanks, Trudy
I tested my zinc/copper and ceruloplasmin, but not clear on knowing what makes up pyrrole disorder. I have many over-methylation symptoms and can’t consume methyls (folate only folic acid), low serotonin and calm outside sever anxiety inside: my plasma copper=95.9, zinc=86.4, cerulo = 20. I thought this was showing slightly high free copper but not clear on the pyrrole front. Any thoughts appreciate? 🙂
Hi Trudy,
thank you for this interview!
do you think it is possible to get a list of all the labs worldwide that do the testing you have discussed in the most accurate ways, as Dr. Walsh has described?
I live in southern Germany.
Thanks!
Dear Trudy, Dr. Walsh/Dana Z.,
1. You agree that false negatives can occur with urine testing for pyroluria. Do you think that false positive results are also a possibility?
2. What are the best ways to distinguish genetic pyroluria from oxidative stress pyroluria? Is the treatment strategy essentially the same for each type?
Thank you!
Liz – Did you order the Kryptopyrrole test from pyroluriatesting.com / Direct Health Care Access II Labs? If so, yes, the results can sometimes yield false negatives or false positives from time-to-time. A knowledgeable physician may repeat the labs especially if pyroluric symptoms are present. Often times, borderline cases are seen in test results, which is why we recommend working with an experienced physician.
A genetic pyrrole disorder can result in low serotonin and GABA levels, and often runs in families. Specific laboratory markers, symptoms, and extensive medical history will provide clues to indicate pyroluria as oxidative stress or an acquired genetic disorder. Treatment is based on severity and the patient’s biochemistry.
Dear Dana,
Thanks very much for the reply to my 2 questions. Very helpful.
In response to your question, I have never had a urine test for pyroluria but am considering having one done hence my interest on the subject of possible false negative and false positive results.
My 8 year old son has autism. What tests should he have done and what kind of doctor should I take him to?
Can you give me info in how to join the autism summits?
Hi Diane
We cover so much of this specific to autism in my interview with Julie https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/addressing-anxiety-autism/ The work that Julie does in the special diets area is the best. She has an excellent book “Nourishing Hope for Autism” which is a good start for learning more about the biomedical approach.
Much of what Dr Walsh covers may be applicable too as histamine imbalances, pyroluria and zinc/copper issues are common with autism.
Mike Mutzel hosted an Autism Intensive earlier this year – here is some information on it https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/autism-intensive/ the link at the bottom goes to his site where you can purchase the series an/or get access to some of the interviews
Hi Trudy,
Would you share which labs Dr. Walsh recommends for Pylouria Urine testing?
Thank you!
Dawn – We recommend the Kryptopyrrole Quantitative Urine from DHA Laboratory.
Here’s the direct link: https://www.pyroluriatesting.com/shop/kryptopyrrole-quantitative/
I’m wondering where I can find out more about the ‘hybrid’ depression biotypes? I am both pyroluric and an undermethylator and would love to know experiences with others who had/have similar biochemistry..
One quote I’ve read that is attributed to this book is “A significant number of undermethylated depression patients exhibit some degree of pyrrole disorder. Many persons with this combination of imbalances exhibit high accomplishment throughout life, but report extreme internal anxiety and poor stress control along with depression . Since both undermethylation and pyrrole disorder are associated with low serotonin activity, depression is usually more severe in these cases. Our database studies indicate persons with this hybrid condition are more likely to report suicidal thoughts compared to persons with any other form of depression.”
Sorry, I know you’re overloaded already but another question: there’s mixed opinions on beginning treatment during pregnancy. I’m 36 weeks pregnant and started treatment for pyroluria and undermethylation over a fortnight ago and seem to be experiencing intense copper dumping symptoms – is this safe for baby?
Dr. Walsh cautions against large dosages of nutrients during pregnancy because of possible harm to the fetus.
Daily I have been taking:
Zinc: 100mg
P5P: 100mg
Biotin: 5,000mcg
L-Methionine: 150mg
Evening Primrose Oil: 2g
Liposomal Vitamin C: 1g
Is this too high?
These were recommended by a bio balance integratuve doctor who has been trained by Dr Walsh.
Trudy, I hope it is okay that I repost something I didn’t get an answer to above? I hope someone can explain this to me in a way I can understand: I have understood everything that was discussed except for that part at about 1:01:30 where Dr. Walsh talks about a person who has undermethylated depression and low serotonin activity and are given methylfolate which improves their methylation but they would get worse. He said you would promote serotonion reuptake and that’s not what they need. Which I can understand in a way because people take serotonin reuptake INHIBITORS. But I thought improved methylation was the goal as well? Can you explain this in a different way so that I can understand? And what supplements are used to get these people proper methylation and the serotonin they need?
Donna
No problem. I’m catching up with comments as I can. More difficult questions that require time to research or getting answers from the speaker will take more time. This one fits that category
Dear Trudy and Dr. Walsh,
Thank you for this excellent interview! Trudy I have posted before, not recently (a classically-trained musician who has successfully used your pyroluria info to help myself with this medical issue I now know I have, because of your book.)
I have two questions for Dr. Walsh:
I have a mild brain injury (car accident, many years ago). In the early ’90s nobody could give me the nutritional help I needed to heal an injured brain (neuropsychologists were the only help we were offered). Lots of my own research has helped: keep blood sugar rock-steady; eat lots of organic, animal fats & vegetables; Paleo diet; inclusion of a lot of grass fed-grass finished beef and ferments.
The car accident manifested my issues with mild depression. I now believe that is also when pyroluria manifested (I was clinically diagnosed, at the time, with a reduced sense of smell & taste). Zinc has become my best friend!
Two questions:
1. What more can I do, given a brain injury history almost 30 years ago, to help my now aging brain, and the pyroluria I now seem to have permanently?
2. A dear friend just acquired a mild brain injury from a fall. I remember reading on your Alternet site about things you would recommend to someone who had just gotten a brain injury. Can you share that info here please (I could not re-find it)?
Thank you BOTH for information that is life-changing for so many of us!!
Laura
PS Dr. Walsh, as a classically-trained musician, THANK YOU for the research you did into Beethoven’s health issues. That story, and your role in it, is truly amazing. You did what Beethoven himself wanted done: to find out what was wrong and how to heal it. Your work re. one of our musical heroes is nothing short of amazing. I re-read his Heiligenstadt Testament, after I read about what you had done (and the book, Beethoven’s Hair). It made me cry to realize just how important the work that people like you and Trudy Scott do for us. How many “Beethoven’s/musicians” are you helping today? Thank you.
Trudy, since William Walsh is mentioned in this blog post I thought you and comment readers might be interested in Dr. Mensah’s approach to heavy metal toxicity and I should post it here. http://www.mensahmedical.com/metal-toxicity-depression/ and another practitioner who uses Walsh’s approach is the nutritionist Samantha Gilbert (Sami G’s) http://samanthagilbert.com/methylation-diet-tips/
Thank you!
Thanks you Lisa
Trudy, can you tell me what the zinc to copper ratio should be , or direct me where I can find that information? Thank you in advance.
My understanding is that the zinc:copper ration should be 8:1
I would be interested in hearing about anyone’s experience with copper detoxing. I have been experiencing nausea, flu-like symptoms, and a metallic taste in my mouth, which I understand is normal. Can’t wait to get through to the “other side” of it, but emotionally I am already feeling so much more even keel (It has been 4 weeks)
Hello Denise, your post is from over a year back, wanted to ask how did the copper detox go and how are you? Also, what was the dosage of zinc or any other augumenting nutrients you were taking? I am going through it myself now and need some advice
Hi Trudy I follow you on fb! Well Iv had some traumas but 5 yrs ago I had one that changed my life while I was traveling which now I cant travel to see my mom or take my kids on vacation which makes me emotional as well as having a phobia to heights and living in Houston with all these bridges I hardly go out my kids think Im crazy and get upset cause I don t go out, I cant move cause my husbands job is here, I get physical anxiety on the freeway, or trying to sit somewhere! Iv tried St john wart combined with a supplement that had Tyrosine made me very irritable and bad OCD. Every time Im going to travel I get panic attacks and anxiety since days before so i cry myself to sleep! I think I have Pyluria, MTHFR and a tyhroid problem. Your questionare and urine lab test say Im low on all neurotransmiters Serotonin at 43! Im in desperate help antidepressants make my stomach hurt and gain weight. I had gotten better with EFT tapping and acupunture but I took steroids for a rash and my anxiety came back ever since 2 yrs ago cant get better! I tried 5htp 50 mg 2 yrs ago I felt great but the second day it didnt work since Im very sensitive with what I take I got scared and didnt take it again! I always have nightmares! Eager to know your opinion on supplements Trudy! Thank you and God Bless you!
Have a Hair Analysis..work with someone who really knows how to use it and recommends Dietary and Supplental changes as well as Detoxing from Heavy Metals, based upon the findings. It might take a year or two, Very effective if used properly.
Roxy
I’m sorry to hear this. When you’re in the midst of all this it can be difficult to figure out alone and finding a practitioner to guide you would be ideal.
In the meantime I always start my clients on the basics: real food, no junk, animal protein at breakfast to balance blood sugar, no gluten, no sugar, no caffeine and one amino acid (based on the questionnaire and NOT urinary neurotransmitter testing).
If someone has done well on 5-HTP before working with me I’d have them do a trial again and start very low. I typically start my clients on tryptophan (Lidtke brand) but some people do fine on 5-HTP. Addressing low serotonin can help overcome much of the fear with moving forward with other approaches as there can be many root causes for anxiety.
Why do you like Tryptophan more than 5htp and what brand is the animal protein I havent seen one? Trudy? Could I take the 5htp 50 mg in the morning and the Gaba chewable 250 mg at night?
My pulse oximetry has been low for no apparent reason without symptoms of lung difficulties, mainly when laying down. No apnea. Is it possible my pyroluria is effecting a false reading? My hemaglobin has been boderline low.
I saw in Hematology journal ” Unexpectedly low pulse oximetry measurements associated with variant hemoglobins” Is pyroluria considered a variant hemoglobin?
I treat my pyroluria with 75% success.
Is this something I need to be concerned with? As far as I know The Oxygen saturation readings have been off since treating pyroluria about a year ago.
Also, it was mentioned spleen pain can be from excess pyroles. Does one increase supplements to rid body of excess or is it to be expected with disorder. Should I be concerned? I do not get discomfort but every so often it does travel to my back.
I am very grateful to those who have helped educate us on this summit.
Just in regard to the discussion with Dr Walsh about schizophrenia and marijuana – the Dunedin Study has great information on this. The researchers have followed 1000 people from birth for the last 40 years and have a huge body of information about marijuana smoking and its association with development of schizophrenia. Dr Walsh says he is not sure about the link, so he might find the research in the Dunedin Study useful.
Karin
Thanks for sharing this study as I’m not familiar with it. I think this is it? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11015816
I was actually taken by surprise when Dr. Walsh said he had not found a connection and didn’t get a chance to swing back and share what I know too. I know of many instances of schizophrenia being triggered by marijuana and we even talked about it my interview with Dr. Hyla Cass https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/marijuana-anxiety/.
Here are a few:
trauma and cannabis http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27209524
psychosis/schizophrenia/cannabis http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26884547
I’d love to know your interest in this area?
Yes, that is one of the published study results – the study has published a huge body of research on all aspects of life, diet, lifestyle, propensity for illness etc etc. It has been running for over 40 years and is on-going, so more information is being published all the time.
My interest in it is just that I am a New Zealander and Dunedin is a New Zealand city 🙂
Wonderful – thanks!
Trudy, I was reviewing my notes recently from this talk and I would love it if you could ask Doctor Walsh some extra questions next time you interview him.
So here are my questions:
1. Doctor Walsh talked as if each depression type was separate but my Walsh trained doctor diagnosed both pyroluria and undermethylation.
– can you be both?
– if you are do you treat both together or do the pyroluria treatment first and then see what happens?
2. You talked about false negatives. Are there ever false positives on the whole blood histamine test. I wasn’t on any antihistamines or reacting to any allergens but I am curious if there are ever false positives?
3. I looked at the symptom list and I could be either under or over methylating depending which symptoms are most critical. Which symptoms most matter to determine under/over methylation? When I look at my symptoms my body does well on low doses of methylfolate and poorly on methyl B12 yet I’m an undermethylator! SSRIs weren’t particularly helpful (less depressed but mainly because I was a zombie). Antihistamines did nothing. I’m not asking for a diagnosis just giving this as background for Doctor Walsh to consider when you next interview him so I can better understand the under/over methylation (terminology aside)
4. My Zn and Cu were both normal but the ratio was out. how does that affect things if both are in the normal range?
Thanks for an awesome talk. He explained things that my doctor never really explained so it helped me make sense of her treatment protocol!
Can you remind us the optimal levels of zinc?
I think it was 100-120 mcg/dL
I just checked mine from the last test as 66 mcg/dL plasma zinc and copper 96 so ratio of 1.46
I read in various places it should be 0.8 – 1.0 or 0.7 – 1.0
And lastly on the histamine would labs in other countries have different ranges? The lab in Australia iPATH Medlabs where I had mine done had a range of 28-51 ug/L and at 62 mine was elevated but I saw Doctor Walsh say > 70 is histadelia. His comments on the different lab ranges would be appreciated
Hi Trudy,
Trying to navigate the complex world of methylation. Per whole blood histamine tests, we have both over and under methylators in our family.
We understand the under methylators need to avoid folate/folic acid foods and vitamins while the over methylators benefit from them.
The challenge comes in finding appropriate multiple vitamins. Our brand of vitamins now contains methylated folate and B12. We believe the brand no longer is appropriate for the under methylators who need to avoid folate/folic acid and the over methylators who need to avoid methyl. The manufacturer claims their vitamin is safe regardless of methylation status.
Do you know any quality multiple vitamins that have versions with non methylated folate/folic acid for the over methylators and versions that have no folate/folic acid (neither methylated nor non methylated ) for the under methylators.
Our goal is to make sure we get all the important vitamins and minerals we need while also addressing our methylation status.
Thank you very much!
Hello Trudy,
Happy Holidays and many many thanks for all you do! Always learn so much from this blog.
Just want to share my experience: It was from your great book that I learned I have pyroluria and I feel much better with increased amounts of B6 and zinc. I am so grateful. A while back, I decided to try out the zinc/copper/whole blood histamine blood tests and urine testing using a Walsh trained dr. The urine test showed pyroluria each time but the zinc always appeared high normal. Also, the whole blood histamine varied from one end to the other – toward under methylation then toward over.
After being on high doses of zinc, my copper level became even higher.
I became uncomfortable taking supplements based on the blood tests as they clearly appeared to be inconsistent and unreliable. On various websites, I have seen others report similar problems with the blood testing.
So I am back to using your book and all the guidance it offers on dosing zinc and B6 as well as the use of amino acids (GABA, tryptophan, 5HTP and tyrosine). And I am managing well.
I remain a great advocate of “nutrient power” versus pharmaceuticals but believe the lab testing is not yet where it needs to be.
A
Thanks for coming and sharing as this helps us all learn. I’m so glad you have found what works for you and are doing well! I’d have to agree that although helpful in many instances, some of the testing has a long way to go. I’ve seen variances in pyroluria urine tests, in plasma zinc and serum copper (and would never rely on serum zinc) but not whole blood histamine so it’s good to know about the latter.
Hello,
Does anyone knows what sam/sah ratios are considered functionally low or high? Mine is Sam:sah 101: 6.5. would that be over or undermethylation? There is specific numbers for histamine levels, but I cant seem to find any information on sam/sah ratio. I would appreciate your help.
Kate
This is not a test I do but Doctor’s Data has >4 on their Methylation profile https://www.doctorsdata.com/resources/uploads/sample_reports/Sample%20Report%20Plasma%20Methylation.pdf
I also suggest working with the practitioner who ordered the test
Thank you Trudy, I have been looking for that information a long time, unfortunately where I live (Poland) there is no practitioners knowledgable in Dr Walsh protocol, getting the sam/sah test was quite a challenge itself so I am left to my own devices. If anything above 4 as an index of methylation is sufficient methylation, then my 15.5 is definitely indicative of overmethylation. Finally have some answers, thank you very much again:)
Hope I’m not posting this question too late but here we go: My local health coach recommended a daily zinc intake of 130mg because of copper overload. This seems crazy high to me. Could anyone share what the usual dosage is that Dr Walsh recommends. Is it really that high?
Thanks in advance
Felix
My understanding is that health coaches should not be making supplement recommendations. Either way, if it was someone who can make supplement recommendations I would be cautious about anything above 60mg zinc per day. I’m afraid I don’t know what Dr. Walsh recommends – you could reach out to to him directly.
I use evening primrose oil (if needed) to improve zinc absorption and have my clients remove all sources of copper.
Thanks Trudy! Yes, the coach was herself coached by Dr Walsh so I assume her recommended dosage was according to his protocol. It still seemed odd to me, which is why I asked.
Have a great day 🙂