Both 5-HTP and tryptophan help to boost serotonin levels so you can feel happy, calm, sleep well and not crave carbs. I typically have my clients who have low serotonin symptoms start with a trial of tryptophan because it I see such excellent results with this amino acid. That being said, some people simply do better on one versus the other and you may do better with 5-HTP. If you have low serotonin symptoms and are using either of these amino acids and not getting the expected results, it’s worth considering a change.
Here is a question I recently received on the blog. It’s something I’m commonly asked about and something I deal with often when working one-on-one with clients:
I am on 5-HTP (400 mg) [for anxiety]. I am wondering about trying tryptophan instead. What is the best (safest) way to make the switch? What is the starting dose you usually suggest? I am tapering off SSRIs so I know my serotonin reserves are low.
Here are some of the reasons you may want to consider switching and doing a trial of tryptophan
- the 5-HTP is not working as you would expect for your anxiety or depression, or other low serotonin symptoms like PMS, insomnia, afternoon and evening carb cravings, negative self-talk, perfectionism, worry in the head and ruminations, and even anger issues or irritability (here is the complete questionnaire)
- the 5-HTP is causing digestive issues
- you have done an adrenal saliva test and discovered you have high cortisol. If you feel wired-tired I like to use tryptophan because 5-HTP has been shown to raise cortisol levels
Depending on how severe your symptoms are I would have you slowly replace one with the other, keeping in mind that 50mg 5-HTP is roughly equivalent to 500mg tryptophan.
In this particular case she was taking 400 mg 5-HTP and was surprised to hear that she may now need 2000 mg tryptophan, saying “that seems like a lot!”
Here is my feedback:
2000mg tryptophan isn’t too much if you have low serotonin symptoms and need it. If we were working together I would have her start with a trial of 500mg which is the typical starting amount and increase based on her response. If 500mg helps some symptoms but doesn’t give complete resolution of symptoms then I’d have her try 1000mg and monitor symptoms, and then go up to 1500mg and even 2000mg.
She may respond better to tryptophan and may only need 500mg or 1000mg or she may in fact need the full 2000mg.
She is currently taking an SSRI, so I would assume her doctor already knows she has been using 5-HTP and knows her plans to switch, giving approval and monitoring for possible serotonin syndrome. She would also take the tryptophan at least 6 hours from the SSRI.
Here is additional information on SSRI tapering while using amino acids.
Obviously a similar approach could be used to switch from tryptophan to 5-HTP.
I also only ever recommend the Lidtke brand of tryptophan. You can find this and the other amino acids I use with my clients here.
Have you switched from 5-HTP to tryptophan and seen added benefits?
Have you switched from tryptophan to 5-HTP and seen added benefits?
If you’re a practitioner please share if you’ve used this approach successfully.
Is there even 1 study which definitively shows that 5-HTP or Tryptophan is contraindicated when an individual is taking SSRIs? These drugs deplete serotonin – even admitted by the pharmaceutical companies themselves. Therefore it seems more reasonable to me to suggest that they are actually INDICATED rather than contraindicated.
Having used them with individuals on SSRIs to gradually taper them off these drugs I have never seen a case of serotonin syndrome. I suspect this idea was put forth years ago and has been continually passed down with no one ever questioning it. At least that is how I see it.
Dr. Trubey
Thanks for asking this question! I actually address it in the SSRI taper blog linked to in this article – here it is https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/taper-from-antidepressant-tryptophan-amino-acids/ (see the section where I quote Dr. Bongiorno). I agree with you – it’s an old precaution that seems to continue to hang around. I was taught this by Julia Ross and since I’m a nutritionist and not a doctor I prefer to err on the side of caution.
Dr. Bongiorno has his patients use tryptophan at the same time as SSRIs and had also not seen an issue or signs of serotonin syndrome. I assume this is what you mean: using them at the same time and not using the 6 hour gap? If that’s the case it’s encouraging for me to get this feedback from yet another practitioner.
Thank you Trudy.
Yes I do mean it in the way you suggested – as a means of getting off an SSRI drug. But nevertheless, I believe they should also be used in the individual who wants to continue to use SSRIs. The long-term use of these drugs deplete the body’s reservoir of these critical neurotransmitters. Most don’t want to continue, but for the few who do I will not hesitate to keep them on a low level of a balanced precursors of dopamine/nor-epinephrine and serotonin. There is no downside with that as there is no study that suggests it will cause a serotonin syndrome because they are using them with SSRIs. But there is a big upside with the individual no longer depleting their neurotransmitters that are benefiting multiple systems in the body.
Thank you again, Dr. Trubey
Thanks for the clarification. As you’re aware there are a number of studies where tryptophan is used with an SSRI to make it more effective.
But I agree, most of my clients choose not to continue with SSRIs.
I’m curious about your use of tryptophan vs 5-HTP and the concurrent use of tyrosine (I see you have trained with Dr. Marty Hinz)
Trudy: I first heard you give a great presentation on a summit in 2014, and many times since then – love your blog. After many years of chronic anxiety, severe insomnia and what I believe is adrenal fatigue, I’ve tried everything. I’m very sensitive to any type of medication or supplement so I always start at half the recommended dosage of anything. Melatonin makes me feel like I am going under anesthesia and I wake up groggy and headachy, even on 1 mg. Sam-E did not seem to have any effect at all. I tried 5-HTP in 2014 and within three days was thinking suicidal thoughts and stopped it. I got the recommended Litke L-tryptophan and tried it in early 2015 during a panic attack (new to me) – felt no result on half a capsule so took one capsule after three days and suffered terrifying heart palpitations, stopped immediately. Valerian seems to stimulate me rather than relax me, so perhaps I have one of those “contrary” physiologies. A counselor has told me she thinks I am ADHD and undiagnosed PTSD due to childhood abuse. I take no regular medications at mid-60’s, I will NOT take the usual sleep remedies or anti-anxiety stuff recommended by MDs. I’ve learned a lot but am still searching for the right course of action (besides counseling). Currently trying to slowly increase my magnesium levels (a regular dose makes me dizzy). Thanks for all you do for health and well-being.
Chris
I am sorry to hear about your sensitivities and contrary reactions. A few things I’d consider is always doing a trial first, doing 1 dab rather than 1/2 a capsule BUT with this type of reaction I’d look elsewhere other than low serotonin for the root cause/s – there can be many https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/60-nutritional-biochemical-causes-of-anxiety/
In the meantime check out light therapy, essential oils, yoga, heartmath and possibly homeopathy. I’m assuming the basics are addressed: real whole food, quality animal proteins, eating for blood sugar control, no gluten, no caffeine, no sugar, good gut health and also no baking with nut flours (I’m seeing this to be an issue in the Paleo coummunity)
Hello Trudy,
Excellent blog on the use of tryptophan vs. 5HTP for anxiety/depression and other symptoms associated with low levels of serotonin such as PMS.
In those cases where severe PMS is present:
1. Do you believe it is critical to also check for low progesterone/estrogen dominance?
2. Do you believe a quality and natural brand of progesterone cream is the best method to correct a progesterone/estrogen imbalance? What testing method do you find most reliable – perhaps salivary testing?
I am wondering if individuals who still struggle with severe symptoms despite adding 5HTP/ tryptophan may also have an underlying progesterone/estrogen imbalance that requires additional correction (ex. progesterone cream) in addition to the use of serotonin boosters like 5HTP/tryptophan. I welcome your thoughts and guidance on the relationships between low serotonin and PMS.
Thank you, Trudy!
Hi Liz
Thanks – glad you enjoy the blog post. I cover most of your questions on this blog post https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/tryptophan-for-pms-premenstrual-dysphoria-mood-swings-tension-irritability/ – in summary GABA and tryptophan support and pyroluria support initially (as this starts to shift porgesterone and estrogen in a few months) plus looking at hormone levels (sex hormones and adrenals). I have seen mixed results with bioidentical progesterone – some people do really well on creams and others do better on oral
Dear Trudy,
Just read the blog you referenced and learned a lot. I took note that in the study L tryptophan was also given into the first 3 days of the menstrual cycle.
PMS is such a disabling problem for many women and teens. It is very enlightening to learn more and more about the value of supporting brain chemistry thru the appropriate use of amino acids. And, as you advise, to address other key factors such as pyroluria, etc. that could be an underlying factor in PMS.
Thank you also for providing your take on the use of progesterone.
Dear Trudy,
As this year draws to a close, I wish to express my deepest deepest gratitude for all that I have learned from you. I thank you also for the personal responses we receive to our questions.
5HTP and tryptophan have been a Godsend and with your helpful guidelines I have been able to use them in a safe effective manner.
5HTP helps with daytime symptoms such as anxiety and GI disturbances while tryptophan greatly assists sleep. And thanks to you, I discovered and am treating my underlying issue of pyroluria. My health is steadily improving with your shared knowledge and wisdom.
May you enjoy Happy Holidays and may the new year bring all the best to you!! You truly make the world a better place!!
Liz
Thanks for the lovely message! Hearing news like this is gift to me 🙂 I’m so happy for you! May you also enjoy Happy Holidays and may the new year bring all the best to you too!
AM I BIPOLAR?????? I started to read your book because I still had withdraw symptoms from ativan which I was on for 2 years. I was misdiagnosed as having anxiety but I really had occipital neuralgia. After reading about pyroliria?, I was convinced that this is what my 10 year old son has. I did not get much answers from you so I decided to read THE MOOD CURE. Going back and forth,both books, I dediced to start myself instead of my son on the zinc, b6 and EPO, on top of supplements I take for occipital neuralgia. I started to feel uplifting. Even though I do score high on the serotonin questioner. At night I still could not fall asleep and stay asleep so I tried 5-HTP, no difference. Since I have feelings of low blood sugar, I started to take glutimine……….I had weird dreams and kept twitching in bed, heard voices and heart was pounding off my chest. I quit right away, that was only one night!. I then tried Tryptophan, night one I could not sleep, night two I felt a bit tired but heard voices and had crazy thoughts. I hurried to take some of the vitamin c and fell asleep. Never again!. I heard about taurine, although not much has been written on taurine in your book and the mood cure, Iv been doing great on it. I take it around 6pm on an empty stomach, I then have dinner and by 9 I’m yawing, I sleep through the night and wake up early. Although I have to say this week iv been pretty tired in the morning, perhaps I don’t need it……what are your thoughts on this, Iv never been diagnosed as being bipolar, I don’t know what it is so why the symptoms after taking the amino acids???, they were scary for me. I have to say though the zinc, B6 and EPO has changed my life for the better!!!….Thank you so much for your education and time to blog, you are super appreciated!!!!
Ivy
Glad to hear you have taurine so helpful! And that the pyroluria protocol has been so helpful too – I love to hear these kinds of results.
Your reactions to the amino acids could be that you didn’t need them or it may have been too high a dose (of tryptophan) or too low a dose (of 5-HTP). Or even the brand – I only use Lidtke tryptophan.
Taurine is also supportive of the liver so maybe that is a factor for you and why it helps so much.
Obviously I can’t comment on your bipolar question – but keep in mind that the following can trigger swings: low blood sugar, gluten exposure, hormone imbalances, autoimune thyroid conditions and low lithium
Thanks Trudy for your response. The brand I used was the one you recommend, I did take half on the tip of my toungh and felt a bit relaxed but nothing else. I did take the rest about 30 minutes later and about an hour later felt really odd. Scary thoughts and voices.
Perhaps now I will go back a try half again ONLY and see what happens.
How fantastic that you mention liver support, I did have inflammation of the liver last year confirm through an ultrasound.
I do have low blood sugar symptoms, something I learn through the help of doctors NOT!!!!…It has helped that I eat more often esp meat throughout the day, thank you.
Im also wondering if its the primrose oil that has helped get rid of bad mood, heavy menstral and feeling of bladder props during that time of the month. Ever since iv been taking it all the feelings I have are somewhat gone ESP the bladder prolasp I don’t feel anymore.
Your awesome Trudy!!!!!!
Ivy
With scary thoughts and voices I would not use tryptophan again.
Here is some research I dug up on taurine for you – you’ll see liver and detox comes up a lot.
The role of taurine on anxiety-like behaviors in zebrafish – “Mounting evidence suggests that it acts in osmoregulation, neuromodulation and also as an inhibitory neurotransmitter” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26724225
Mechanisms of trazodone-induced cytotoxicity and the protective effects of melatonin and/or taurine toward freshly isolated rat hepatocytes – antioxidant, boosts glutathione, supports the liver https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24023050
Therapeutic applications of taurine – “Metabolic actions of taurine include: bile acid conjugation, detoxification, membrane stabilization, osmoregulation, and modulation of cellular calcium levels. Clinically, taurine has been used with varying degrees of success in the treatment of a wide variety of conditions, including: cardiovascular diseases, hypercholesterolemia, epilepsy and other seizure disorders, macular degeneration, Alzheimer’s disease, hepatic disorders, alcoholism, and cystic fibrosis.” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9577248
You’ll be pleased to hear I’ve added taurine to my list of blog posts to work on! I’m curious if you’ve been on trazodone or other meds, or been exposed to any toxins or if any of the above resonates with you (it’ll help me understand why you’re seeing so much benefit from taurine)
And yes to your evening primrose oil question for mood and heavy bleeding. I’m not sure about the bladder prolapse but it may feel better due to less bloat, less water retention and less bleeding
How much taurine are you taking at 6pm?
I wake ip several times in the night so im taking taurine since nothing else is working so far. I take 1500mg before bed. I stil wake up.
I take the now brand extra strength 1000 on an empty stomach at 6pm…last time I may had something to eat may have been around 3, a light snack or even just tea and a cracker.
I have noticed that I get too tired to eat a whole meal after taking taurine so I don’t eat a lot of my dinner and if I do I really knock out with a big belly.
My weight is at 135 if that makes a difference for you, taking the 1000 only once.
I did not take it last night since iv been feeling a bit tired in the morning like I can still sleep but I have to be up for 4 little guys. I did sleep last night, waking up once to place ice at the nape of my neck due to my neuralgia flaring up on the sides of my head. I think thats what woke me up was the neuralgia.
Hi Trudy,
“Depression is decreased frequency of firing of areas the frontal cortex, pre-frontal, orbitofrontal, and the cingulate gyrus. At the end of the day, someone’s clinical depression is that part of their brain not firing. Then our goal as a clinical workup is why? What’s not making that area of the brain fire?”
Does tyrophan help with with these misfirings? Are there other examples of what this means? Thanks
Ben
Is this from Dr Amen’s work? I don’t use this in my work but rather look at the symptoms my clients experience and help address nutritional deficiencies and biochemical imbalances to alleviate the symptoms
Oh no….Trudy has not answered my questions againn …..I just want to know why could someone like me feel the way I do with what you recommend and why is it I feel better on taurine but not much is written on taurine in either books???????
Hi Ivy
There is no reason why taurine isn’t mentioned much except that here are so many beneficial nutrients and I chose to focus on those that most people benefit from. I’m so pleased to hear taurine helps you so much!
I understand….I just wish there was more since it has helped me. I google it but nothing that has satisified me yet. Thank you.
please see my other feedback and list of studies….
I would like to ask your opinion of the Hinz protocol. I read on your blog that some people like it, and some have a problem with it.
I ask because I have been on the protocol for ten months, but with inconsistent results and without a complete resolution of symptoms. I keep being told that I am “very close” to being balanced, but it hasn’t happened yet.
I keep being told I am “very close” to being balanced, and Dr. Hinz claims 100% resolution of symptoms. But it is a very expensive program, and I am having my doubts.
It is impossible to find reviews on the website from people who aren’t coworkers or colleagues of Dr. Hinz’. I would very much like some perspective.
Thank you for any insight you can provide.
Hi Cassandra
My approach is very different from that of Dr. Hinz. Here is my feedback:
1) I do trials of individual amino acid supplements based on the client’s response to the amino acid questionnaire. That way we can get results right away one way or the other. Each one is going to work or won’t work – within a 4-5 weeks we know (since a new one may be trialed each week. At most 10 weeks we we trial each one for longer. If someone is not seeing any results I would assume they do not need the amino acids and look elsewhere.
2) We actually start to look for other root causes from day 1 too – low blood sugar, leaky gut, gluten issues, adrenal issues and high cortisol, toxins, special diets etc
3) There are typical starting doses but these can vary greatly based on individual needs so I have not found there to be a one size fits all approach which I believe is how Dr Hinz works.
4) I will start with tryptophan and then may use 5-HTP if we’re not seeing results with tryptophan (and only use Lidtke tryptophan)
5) I won’t use the 5-HTP: tyrosine in set ratios and often don’t use tyrosine at all until the anxiety has calmed down (so only after we have tryptophan/5-HTP and GABA on board)
6) I don’t find the need for urinary neurotransmitter testing. It’s also not been seen to correlate with CSF and brain levels.
I don’t like to be negative about another practitioner and have not had the opportunity to learn the nuances of Dr Hinz approach but feel I should at least share how my approach differs. I have also had similar feedback from others who have reached out to me so you’re not alone with your concerns.
On a positive note I have one colleague who uses his approach and another who says she’s heard he has success with it. I have also heard he does have great success with Parkinson’s disease.
Not everyone is going to have success with every approach (even the work I do) and when your gut tells you something is no working it’s time to get a second opinion (as you have done here) and find a new approach/doctor/nutritionist.
Would you kindly share your symptoms, what has improved and what the protocol is that you’re doing? Ten months is a long time.
My symptoms were OCD, anxiety, and depression. All of them have improved, but I have never been totally stable on the protocol. I was prescribed massive doses of tyrosine and 5 HTP (taking 38 pills a day, and several scoops of tyrosine powder).
In theory, Hinz’ approach makes sense.The idea is to start at a base dose of amino acids, do a urine test, and then keep testing/ adjusting until both serotonin and dopamine are in the proper range. He has published a lot of papers, has done extensive research, and claims a 100% success rate.
However…
The protocol is very expensive. Some people respond quicker then others, require fewer tests, and take lower doses of supplements. But I wasn’t one of them .I kept thinking it would be just one more test, and one more adjustment… Now, 10 months later, I have spent almost $8000 on testing and supplements. I recently had another test and my neurotransmitters still weren’t balanced, so it was suggested I up the dose of amino acids even further – which would cost, in total, about $1000 a month.
There is also something called “paradoxical reactions” which people need to be aware of when considering his approach. When a dose is changed, a person can react in a way that isn’t expected, which means a worsening of symptoms. The solution to this is to increase the amino acids even further.
I mentioned that I had inconsistent results. I am going to be frank and honest. I had severe and frequent “paradoxical reactions” were severe. I actually became suicidal seven times.
Thank you, Trudy, for your kind response. It enabled me to be open and honest about my experience.
Kind regards…
Cassandra
Cassandra
Thank you for sharing your experience – I am so sorry you’ve been through all this. It sounded terrible as I was reading it and then when I got to the end where you mention being suicidal seven times I had to read it a few times. I have never has anyone push through any “paradoxical reactions”, even mild ones like nausea, and now I’m even more concerned about this approach.
I don’t want to leave you hanging and not knowing what to do next – have you looked into my approach with amino acids and inositol and tried that? Have you also looked into low blood sugar, caffeine and sugar removal, leaky gut, gluten issues, adrenal issues and high cortisol, toxins, special diets as well?
Trudy……I am unable to find taurin on your list.
Hi Ivy
Here is a good taurine product from Pure Encapsulations https://www.emersonecologics.com/Products/EmersonMain/PID-TAU10.aspx. If you’d like to get it from Emerson you can get the account signup details from this post https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/amino-acids-pyroluria-supplements/
Hi Trudy,
I have started with Source Naturals Gaba Calm 125 mg, 2 on awakening and two in mid afternoon, and 2 Gaba Relaxer at bedtime. It has taken some anxiety edge away from me, but I still feel some anxiety on and off, not so severe as before. I used to feel very anxious on awakening. I want to improve more. to-day, I ordered Lidtke L-trytophan 500mg and am expecting to receive it in a week. I plan to take 2 Gaba Calm on awakening and 2 in mid afternoon, then add one 500mg Trytophan mid afternoon and one 500 mg trytophan at bed time. Is this a good plan? or shall I have 2 Gaba calm on awakening, 2 trytophan mid afternoon and 2 trytophan bedtime. Please advise.
May
Hi May
I’m afraid I can’t offer specific advice here via the blog but this is an excellent question – and I’m pleased to hear this has taken some of the anxiety edge away.
There is also no specific formula to be followed because each person is different and when I’m working with someone we’re figuring out what is working and why and adjusting accordingly. If something is working we continue with that until no more benefits are seen.
I would say this – ask yourself what low GABA anxiety symptoms (this is the physical anxiety) have improved with the GABA and how much (rate each one before – out of 10; and what are they now – out of 10). From your question it sounds like they could improve more – so if we were working together I’d continue to increase GABA before adding something new.
Then once that has been done and we have the ideal amount I’d then check what low serotonin symptoms my client has (these are the busy mind, ruminations type or worry anxiety). If she does have some of these symptoms, pick or two and do a trial with 1 x 500mg tryptophan opened on to the tongue (or less if she’s super sensitive). She rates the symptoms out of 10 before the tryptophan trial and then after the trial. Depending on how she responds on the trial, we’ll decide if she needs 1 or 2 each time. The bedtime dose also depends on how bad the insomnia is. We continue to increase as needed based on symptoms.
All the while we are starting to make other changes – like diet, eating for blood sugar balance, no caffeine, no sugar, looking for high cortisol, no gluten, looking at gut health and for other nutritional deficiencies.
Hope this helps and makes sense? I’d love to hear your feedback on symptom ratings and what you decide to do because I think it will help others.
Hi Trudy, Thanks for your prompt reply.
I look through your questionnaire again, I feel I do fit in Low Serotonin I have the following: Anxiety, Feeling worried or fearful, Obsessive thoughts, perfectionism, Low self-confidence., Insomnia, difficulty getting to sleep. I do not have the other symptoms on your list.
What is the maximum dosage of Gaba one can take? After taking Gaba, I did not have the immediate release of symptoms as you had mentioned in your book. In fact after taking it for over a week. my anxiety symptoms has not subsided that much. If I will do a trail of tryptophan as you had suggested, 1 x 500mg tryptophan opened on to the tongue, Do I expect to feel a release of symptoms immediately to consider it as effective? Is it okay to take Gaba and and Tryptophan on the same day?
Thanks so much for your advice.
Hi Trudy,
What is the maximum dosage of GABA Calm one can take per day before adding Tryptophan?
Thanks for caring!
May
May
It really depends on how each person responds. I’ve gone as high as 500mg each time in some people (slowly increasing) and in one gentleman with severe pain issues 2000mg each time helped him. Too much will make you sleepy or maybe even more anxious and breathless which is why I like to do a trial and increase slowly. Sublingual is always more effective.
Hi Trudy,
Are you able to comment on the quality of life extensions tryptophan as I am unable to get Lydtki brand in New Zealand. I have found your book and talks invaluable and am very grateful for your sharing of knowledge. I have trailed GABA with good effort but still suffer from insomnia fatigue and depression after burning out years ago with adrenal fatigue.
I wish to trial increasing doses if tryptophan but am aware you recommend only certain products.
I am a health practitioner and have access to practitioner medicines but tend to order from Iherb.
With thanks, Kathy
Hi Kathy
I’m afraid I don’t have feedback on Life Extension tryptophan but have recently come across Healthwise tryptophan powder since my arrival in Australia. I don’t know how effective this product is yet either but will be checking it out.
I also have plans to look into more tryptophan products and come up with some criteria and questions to ask companies in order to ascertain purity and quality.
If you do trial the Life Extension tryptophan please do share your results. I have some of the Healthwise tryptophan powder and will be trying it too
Re the Lidtke products – have you tried ordering directly from their site – I believe they ship internationally.
What about using 5-HTP along with Tryptophan? Is there any contraindication for that?
Thank you.
Autumn
I’ll often use both with a client – often 5-HTP during the day and tryptophan at night (when day time tryptophan makes someone too tired).
Hi Trudy,
I wanted to share my experience with supplementing with tryptophan and get your thoughts. I started supplementing with 500mg tryptophan about a month ago with great results. I instantly felt more joy, less anxiety, and was sleeping easier and more deeply. I had much less social anxiety and felt more like joking around and telling stories (something I am terrible at.) I became less obsessive in my thoughts and was more present. I had read on some of your blogs that increasing the dose up to 2000mg is safe and might yield better results so that is what I did. Usually I took it at night with 50mg P5P but not always, occasionally I took it during the day without anything else. Suddenly, after a few weeks of supplementing, I noticed my daytime anxiety was increasing. I was also waking up during the night with my heart and mind racing. I also started developing pain/hardness in my lower abdomen. I have faulty digestion but never that sort of bloating/pain so these symptoms were not normal for me. I decided the tryptophan may be causing more harm than good so I quit taking it. I then experienced what I suspect was rebound anxiety from the sudden drop in serotonin going to my brain. For about a week and a half I experienced high generalized anxiety, twitchy muscles/body uneasiness, panic attacks at work, and low level depression. Luckily I started supplementing with GABA (after I had to leave work due to a panic attack) so the anxiety is under control. I now am back to my normal status of chronic low level anxiety and a slightly blue mood, even with GABA supplementation, so I do feel that I am low in serotonin. I am not sure if what happened was from a serotonin syndrome-like event or if the tryptophan went down inflammatory pathways due to lack of co-vitamins when taking it. Perhaps I was taking too much? In any case I just ordered the Tryptophan Complete product from Litdke to potentially give it a second chance with the proper cofactors. I am nervous to start it again for fear of the same reaction in a few weeks. What are your thoughts? Have any of your patients experienced something similar? Any advice would be very much appreciated!
Also – is it safe to take tryptophan at night along with rhodolia during the day? I take 120mg every morning.
Thanks!
Hi Sara – I read your post with interest and can relate to a lot of what you said. I had very similar reactions with Tryptophan, both the straight Lidtke 500mg and Complete products and I tried a myriad of doses from very little to a lot. Therefore after trialing for a year or so I have had to abandon Tryptophan completely and I believe it has something to do with my COMT and MAOA SNP’s and the fact that I am an over methylator as I don’t break down serotonin very well and the Tryptophan makes too much serotonin in me which then takes days to dissipate leaving me anxious, angry, irritable and suffering from panic attacks. Once I removed the Tryptophan things became a lot more stable mood wise, not perfect but more manageable.
I hope you can find the reason for your adverse reactions and wish you very well on your journey to health and healing. 🙂 Drew
Drew
Thanks for weighing in here again and sharing. Did you also have bad “rebound” anxiety and insomnia when you stop taking the tryptophan? I don’t recall that?
As we’ve discussed elsewhere on the blog we suspect your root cause is not low serotonin and therefore tryptophan and 5-HTP won’t help. I know you used Lidtke so it’s not the quality issue
Remind me who you learned this from: about why you feel you don’t do well with tryptophan? “I believe it has something to do with my COMT and MAOA SNP’s and the fact that I am an over methylator as I don’t break down serotonin very well and the Tryptophan makes too much serotonin in me
Hi Trudy, yes you are right, I didn’t have the rebound and as I mentioned in my comment I related to a lot of what Sara said but not all of it.
I learned about my COMT & MAOA affecting neurotransmitter breakdown from my Doctors Data gen101 DNA Methylation Pathway Profile Blood Spot test (done 12.10.14). Here is an extract from the lab report:
I have:
MAO A / R297R +/+ (T allele)
COMT / V158M +/-
COMT / H62H +/-
MAO A/R297R (monoamine oxidase type A)
Pathways/biochemistry
Monoamine oxidase type A (MAO A) catalyzes the oxidative deamination of biogenic, dietary and xenobiotic amines and, degrades the neurotransmitters serotonin, dopamine, epineprine, and norepinephrine. MAO A has important functions in the metabolism of neuroactive and vasoactive amines in the central nervous system and peripheral tissues. MAO enzymes also deaminate dietary amines, such as tyramine.
Possible Health Implications
MAO A preferentially oxidizes biogenic amines such as 5-hydroxytryptamine (immediate precursor of serotonin), norepinephrine and epinephrine. Serotonin is involved with mood, and aberrant serotonin metabolism is associated with depression, aggression, anxiety, and OCD behavior. Impairment in the central dopamine pathways and metabolism has been suggested as a factor in the pathogenesis of restless legs syndrome (RLS).
Several studies indicate a genetic influence on stress-related disorders. There is evidence that a functional polymorphism in MAO A may influence adult response to childhood abuse or trauma. The association between childhood maltreatment, aggression and mental health problems is significantly stronger in males with the genotype conferring low (TT) vs. high (GG) MAOA activity. Females with childhood trauma and high MAO A (GG) activity may be more aggressive in conjunction with sad mood.
Studies indicate that the high-activity MAOA (GG) genotypes may have less severe autistic symptoms or behaviors.
Genotypic/Phenotypic expression
The G allele encodes for the higher activity form of the enzyme. GT/GG phenotypes have significantly decreased placebo responses. The effects may be cumulative with COMT H62H polymorphisms. MAO A is inherited with the X chromosome and is considered a dependent trait; it may not show standard inheritance characteristics in males. Since the X chromosome in males can only come from the mother, there is no paternal contribution to the genotype. For females, since one X chromosome is inherited from each parent, the genetics tend to reflect the MAO A status of both parents.
How to optimize the phenotype
Monitor clinical indications of abnormal serotonin metabolism and plasma tryptophan. Individuals with genotypic variations may not respond to therapies that rely on placebo effect, and may need pharmaceutical support for mood disorders.
COMT V158M, H62H, 61 (catechol-O-methyltransferase)
Pathways/biochemistry
Catechol-O-methyltransferase catalyzes the transfer of a methyl group (using SAM as the methyl donor), an important step in the inactivation of biological and xenobiotic catechols.
COMT is found in nerve cells, and in the liver, kidneys and red blood cells. In the brain COMT functions to break down catecholamine neurotransmitters such as dopamine, epinephrine, and norepinephrine. In the liver, COMT helps inactivate 2- and 4-hydroxyestrodiols prior to excretion in bile.
Possible Health Implications
SNPs in COMT/ V158M/ H62H may affect neurologic processes (particularly prefrontal processing), including mood and pain tolerance. The V158M VV homozygous variant is associated with deviations in thought processes that are common in people with schizophrenia, including problems with working memory, inhibition of behavior, and attention. The V158Met polymorphism has also been associated with other disorders that affect thought (cognition) and emotion. It is still being evaluated as a risk factor for bipolar disorder, panic disorder, anxiety, obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD), eating disorders, and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD).
COMT plays a key role in processes associated with the placebo effect such as reward, pain, memory and learning. COMT polymorphisms may have cumulative effects with MAO A polymorphisms.
We have also heard a lot about this from Dr Andrew Rostenberg and Ben Lynch – listening to loads of their podcasts and videos.
Thanks Drew – let me try and “digest” this and then I’ll comment (I edited the formatting for easier reading)
This jumped out right away – “There is evidence that a functional polymorphism in MAO A may influence adult response to childhood abuse or trauma. The association between childhood maltreatment, aggression and mental health problems is significantly stronger in males with the genotype conferring low (TT) vs. high (GG) MAOA activity.”
One more question for you: “I am an over methylator”…”I don’t break down serotonin very well” – this sounds like it may be from Dr William Walsh?
Thanks Trudy and apologies for the formatting mess. It looked all fine until I submitted my comment and then the gaps and mess appeared and I couldn’t find a way to go back in an edit it so thanks for doing it for me. 🙂
Yes, the section about childhood abuse/trauma with MAO A seems VERY relevant! Well spotted. You know me pretty well by now. 🙂
Yes, Dr Walsh did speak about ‘over methylators’ and I heard it on your summit interview with him.
Dear Drew, Trudy, and Sara,
I am following your healing journeys. I, too, have Drew’s variations as well as a boatload of other neurotransmitter variations (receptors and transporters). I think if I focus on one neurotransmitter system it throws the others out of balance. I think the multiple variations I have form some kind of delicate balance, making me like an orchid…I won’t blossom if the balance is not there. The amino acid Ive been able to use consistently is taurine. It along with magnesium glycinate and lipothiamine has helped my sleep.
Another missing piece in my healing journey may be my brain iron levels.
I am wondering if any of you have signs of restless leg syndrome, fatigue, muscle aches, and headaches in addition to your anxiety and dysphoria? I am wondering if any of you have had your ferritin levels checked? i just learned my ferritin is extremely low normal despite fine hemoglobin levels. I’m beginning to take iron bisglycinate and I’m curious to see how my symptoms respond.
Wishing you all well in healing
Thanks for sharing the info Robin. Interesting that you have similar variations. I haven’t had issues with restless leg syndrome, muscle aches and headaches although fatigue, due to lack of sleep, has been an issue for me. I used to frequently suffer from excruciating headaches until I completely eliminated gluten an dairy 3 years ago. The last time I was tested my ferritin levels were well within range thankfully. Wishing you well too on your journey to health and wellness… 🙂
Robin
Thanks for sharing. And yes balance is what we are aiming for. Taurine and magnesium (glycinate and other forms too) are helpful for many folks – glad they are helping you!
I’d love to hear more about lipothiamine – what brand, how much and when you take it? And the reason you added this form of B1 + alpha lipoic acid?
Low ferritin is a major factor with fatigue and neurotransmitter production and I have all my clients test this. Iron bisglycinate is my choice too + dietary changes if needed.
Hi Sara
Thank you for sharing and I’m sorry to hear this. If we were working together I’d consider all this and ask these questions:
– when someone is seeing the good results you mention I’d likely have them stay with what is working and if anything slowly increase to 1000mg after a few weeks and observe additional benefits and then increase again if not quite there, reducing if additional benefits are not observed (and not ever increase from 500mg to 2000mg)
– as soon as any adverse effects are seen I have them lower the amount (too much of the amino acids can cause an opposite reaction) and use vitamin C
I have not seen rebound anxiety when tryptophan is stopped but anything is possible and I see and hear about new things all the time. It’s possible the adverse symptoms were due to the higher dose alone. And could also potentially be due it converting to inflammatory quinolinic acid (although I have yet to see this).
I would hope it was the Lidtke 500mg and if yes I may support a cautious and very slow trial of Lidtke Tryptophan Complete (since the benefits were so good initially) but am hesitant because of the adverse effects.
I’d want to dig deeper to find a cause so I’d also want to know if there is any history or current use of SSRIs or benzodiazepines, or any other medications used around this time – certain antibiotics and anti-fungals can cause symptoms like you describe.
Also some people just do better with 5-HTP so this would be worth consideration.
I have had clients use tryptophan and rhodiola together without issues.
Sara
I’d also want to rule out if my client has had mood and digestive fluctuations in the past. If yes we’d consider gluten or other food exposure, Hashimoto’s, SIBO and exposure to problematic foods and even low lithium
If it was possibly one of these this would improve the level of comfort in trialing the Tryptophan Complete.
What is safe for teenagers to use for insomnia?
Katie
The starting dose is 50 mg for 5-HTP is 500mg for tryptophan. I always so a trial https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/how-to-do-an-amino-acid-trial-for-anxiety/ after reviewing the amino acid precautions. Some of my clients do fine with less too.
And would consider these factors too: caffeine, gluten, sugar, SIBO, parasites, high cortisol, blood sugar issues (just adding quality animal protein at breakfast can improve sleep!) and low GABA.
My book “The Antianxiety Food solution” (http://amzn.to/2ivyvRe) covers all this plus an in-depth chapter on the amino acids. Please be an educated user.
I was just wondering about the Organic Acid Test for measuring neurotransmitters. I know you feel urinary tests aren’t accurate. Does that include OATs??
Suzanne
OAT testing is very helpful, used in conjunction with the amino acid questionnaire and trials of the amino acids
Hi Trudy,
Thank you for sharing this link from you FB post! I keep forgetting you answer questions here!
I too along with my 25 yr. old son have the COMT and MAO homogenous snps. He is also over methylated (Mensah Medical/ Dr. Walsh) but I am
under methylated. I am anxious ( pun intended) to read what you think about the snps. being a factor in taking the amino acids! We took the 23 and Me test for those results, Mensah Medical does not go by them at all,
saying its qualitative instead of quantitative. ( or is it the opposite?)
My main questions and concerns are primarily for my son but
I finally have experimented myself with the amino acids since I too have anxiety and can be depressed at times. I feel like after reading a lot of this
info online and writing many notes, I get unfocused after an hour of working. Its like I have fatigue in my eyes and brain is very wired. I then take a gaba with theanine lozenger to counterbalance it but not that helpful. I started opening up a 500 mg. gaba and putting a little of it under tongue too. I would really really love to know how to be able to stay focused and continue to learn and then speak to my son without feeling this unfocused feeling. i.e. If I had to go to work and speak in a meeting, I would be in trouble.
Thank you Trudy for all you do.
Jeanne
Dear Trudy,
With regard to your question about lipothiamine, I use the brand by cardiovascular research. I’m your reader who has been described as having a “complex condition,”–Ehlers danlos, systemic mast cell disease, and POTS. In researching about POTS, I came across Dr. Lonsdale’s work with patients who developed POTS post gardisil vaccination. He recommended the lipothiamine in conjunction with about 300 mg of magnesium. At this point, I take 100 mg of lipothiamine with my other B vitamins in the AM and 100 mg in the evening with my magnesium and taurine.
I also found research that people are more likely to have POTS, or ortho static intolerance, when their ferritin levels are below 50 ng. So, I am hoping to get mine over 50 via the iron bisglycinate. I am now wondering if my low ferritin contributed to my low platelet serotonin and inability to benefit from tryptophan. I understand iron is a cofactor for both tryptophan and tyrosine hydroxylase. So, I was curious if any of your other readers who didn’t benefit from the tryptophan also had low ferritin.
A couple of other recent finds that are contributing to greater feelings of well being are Niagel, a form of vitamin B3, and infrared nasal light therapy. I take the Niagel first thing in the morning and it appears to support my mitochondria. I use the infrared therapy before bed and it seems to be reducing my headache pain levels.
My best to all,
Robin
Robin
Thanks for all this – glad you’re finding answers! Low iron is a factor with neurotransmitter production but providing tryptophan alone is often enough even when ferritin is low. However low ferritin can impact the thyroid and when people are hypothyroid this can lead to amino acid supps being less effective than you would expect.
Hi Trudy!
I just tried taking 50 mg of 5-htp at bedtime and I woke up the next day with beautiful results, however I started having gases and diarrhea from it wich made me feel awful. What can I do to get rid of these problems.
Best regards
Fredy
Love the beautiful results! 5-HTP can do that for a week or so with some people but typically passes. Tryptophan doesn’t do that
Trudy, I started using tryptophan, successfully many years ago, increasing to 5 grams at night because I have high cortisol in the evening preventing me from sleeping . Worked great until my dream convinced me to try Quetiapine for my fibromyalgia symptoms. First dose I ended up in emerg with serotonin syndrome, not fun. Since then anything I take related to serotonin sends me back into the syndrome. Do you think this is any way related to congested liver issues, not being able to metabolize properly?
hi Trudy,
I have been following your blog a long time and this is the first time I have seen comments re: taking tryptophan or 5HTP with SSRIs even if not intending to come off the SSRI. Will there be more information on this. I started on Paxil 12 years ago in a desperate situation with anxiety at a time when the internet was not bulging with alternatives and information like it is now. I regret that because I was an athletic health nut and Paxil, although helped me in crisis has impacted the rest of my life over time. I have tried to wean down (on my own) 3 times and cannot get lower than 10mg without experiencing difficult withdrawal symptoms and insomnia. These “efforts” have contributed to adrenal fatigue with accompanying hormonal imbalance, blood sugar issues and mild hypothyroidism. Addressing these issues over the last few years especially with diet has me in a stable place right now, but I am perimenopausal (still at 56) and feel I might be wise to wait until menopause to come off Paxil. As I said, I am stable but not in my usual vibrant health, fatigue being a huge factor. So I am very curious about the depleted neurotransmitters mentioned by Dr Foger Truybe and how SSRIs can be augmented with tryptophan. Perhaps my goal could be to wean down to 10 mg with amino acid support until menopause. I would love my energy back.
In one other blog you mentioned that Paxil is notoriously difficult to wean. What has been your experience with clients weaning off … I really do not want to repeat my previous attempts at withdrawal. I am on no other medications and have a pretty healthy body. Does that factor into the withdrawal process?
Thanks
Adriana
Hi Trudy,
Have you seen this connection to melatonin and high cortisol in older women? Love your comments please.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/8548054/?i=2&from=/9181519/related
Thanks 🙂
Lisa
I haven’t seen this and since I don’t have the entire paper it’s hard to know if it’s making normal cortisol higher or raising low cortisol in older women. It seems to say it’s happening during the day. I’m curious and will see if I can get the paper and learn more from the authors. Up until now I’ve not heard anyone teach about this or caution melatonin use in relation to HPA axis/adrenal dysfunction.
I’d love to hear if you use melatonin (and how much and for how long, regular or timed-release?) and have done saliva testing and noticed anything? are you menopausal?
Thanks for sharing.
Hi Lisa, I just saw your post! I’m really concerned. I read the article you cited and I have been taking melatonin for years until about a week ago. I started having nightmares and stopped taking it. But what I’m interested in is melatonin raising cortisol in women my age. Oh my gosh, I’m wondering if this has been an issue with me!!! I guess I will have to see if my cortisol decreases. VERY interesting article and wish there was more info on it. Thank you for sharing.
Kaye
Hi Kaye,
All I can say is … ME TOO !
I’m 63 & have been taking melatonin steadily for over a year now. It worked with falling asleep issues but my daytime anxiety (wired-tired) had ramped up such that I started googling and found this report that rather explains me quite well.
I quit melatonin about a week ago and my daytime over the top wired panicky feelings have already diminished. I had a hard time falling asleep first few nights but feeling calmer during the day gave me hope & we will see over time.
Good luck !
Lisa
Lisa
Sorry I answered too soon! now I see this. How much melatonin? Regular or timed-release? I’m curious if you’ve had a saliva adrenal test?
Glad to hear you’re doing better – I wonder if you simply topped up your low levels and now you don’t need it any more? or possibly need less?
Kaye
Thanks for adding to the conversation. Please share how much melatonin and for how long? Regular or timed-release? And remind me – just high night-time cortisol? and are you menopausal? I’m going to do some looking and having some real-life scenarios always help.
Please see my comments posted for Lisa
Hi Lisa and Trudy, I have used Tranquil Sleep from Dr. Michael Murray for um at least 5 years!!!! Its sublingual tablet. I don’t have a bottle here now cuz I switched to cheaper Now brand 5mg. at night. I also have time released another brand cuz wanted to try to see if it would help with waking in middle of the night. I don’t think TS is time released. As I said before I quit melatonin altogether after nightmares (and I rarely dream that I remember) and actually have been pleasantly surprised that I’m sleeping ok? better than before melatonin use. However, I just had new saliva test done in March. My cortisol levels were high normal in morning, normal at noon, high normal in afternoon and high before bed. I’m not totally in high cortisol , right now BUT looks like I’m going that way again. So started seriphos, I have been using Mag.bark but think I want to get to the high cortisol now with something stronger. I am 67 and had oophorectomy in my late 30s. BUT could never use estrogen. So of course I’m ED. Now am using 100mg. prometrium along with compounded prog. cream. and dose varies on that as to angst. While I have your attention Trudy, I sent a note to you (and I don’t remember which blog its on) about me possibly being pyroluric. I haven’t seen a reply. Trust me I don’t even remember when but within last few months. I had read an article on pyroluria and the dr. on it mentioned you. He said on the blood test for pyroluria, if you scored under 10 u don’t have it , if you scored over you are moderate and of course over 20 you are high. I scored 11 and wondered if you thought it would be worth treating? I scored on your questionnaire 23 and I have taken it many times to test myself!! HaHa. Anyway, I did buy Evening primrose oil. From Spectracell test I showed no deficientcys in zinc or B6 and actually had no defic. and copper was normal. Zinc was low normal on Spec test.
Just thought I would throw this in here cuz just wondered.
But I was shocked to read about melatonin. I am probably the melatonin queen. I have used it forever. It was the main thing that helped me sleep. Murrays tranquil sleep also has L threonine along with it. I did think that possibly my levels had topped off and could try a lower dose. I liked Tranquil Sleep cuz I could adjust dose. I guess I could go back to that but don’t want to if it can contribute to cortisol increase!! Yikes. I cant answer to the difference between time released or not cuz cant remember but I suppose I could try it to test for you? Its only nightmares right? Like a giant snake biting my neck!!!! Yuck.
Oh also this week Dr. Christianson’s book is on sale for $1.99 on Amazon, The Adrenal Reset Diet in case someone wants to read it. I jumped on it!!!
Thank you girls so much……I learn so much on here……and hope my sharing helps someone else, trust me Ive been the gambit with endocrinology issues…..wish I could be your patient, as I signed up years ago and heard nothing…I know you are a busy girl and cant even possibly think of the many people who need your help, girl (Trudy)
as ever, Kaye
Thank you girls. for this info……more info would be great!!!! My plan was to start again to see if I could take it again. I fall asleep but don’t stay asleep and have difficulty in middle of the night.
I am confused and maybe I’m just bad at math, but “50mg 5-HTP is roughly equivalent to 500mg tryptophan”….”400 mg 5-HTP and was surprised to hear that she may now need 2000 mg tryptophan, saying “that seems like a lot!”
With this math wouldn’t she need 4,000 mg of Tryptophan?
Matt – you are absolutely correct! thanks for the catch!
Hi Trudy,
when am I supposed to increase my daily dose of 5HTP…currently I’ve been on 250 mg daily for 2 weeks….It is working, but I still have anxiety and ruminating thoughts expecially while driving ( I had a panic attack while I was driving 3 years ago). Is it ok to try to increase 50 mg every week? If I will experience side effects ( both phisical or mental), should I decrease my dose or hang on for few days and see if they pass? ( sorry form my poor english, but I’m italian 🙂
Anna
I have clients increase each week until the ideal is found. They stop if there are any adverse effects
Hi Trudy, My daughter is suffering from OCD since 6 years and getting miserable . She tried SSRIs with no improvement and excessive sleep and lethargy. She was totally non-functional. Her OCD is contamination type and she has intense Fear that is ruining her life and future prospects. She also has icy cold hands and feet with no Thyroid abnormalities on paper.
Can she take 5-HTP or tryptophan and can you take her as your Client.
She really needs help
A worried mom
Shazia
Shazia
I’m sorry to hear. With OCD it’s more often that serotonin support is the first place to start (with tryptophan I like to use 100mg chewable tryptophan with children this age; and/or inositol), plus gluten removal and ruling out strep/PANDAS/PANS (more on that here https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/kid-not-crazy-panspandas-awareness-day-2017/).
If you are new to the amino acids (and other anxiety nutrition solutions like real whole food, quality animal protein, fermented foods, organic produce, health fats, gluten/sugar/caffeine removal, blood sugar control, gut health, pyroluria etc) my book “The Antianxiety Food Solution” is a great place to start. More here https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/the-antianxiety-food-solution-by-trudy-scott/
Please email us at support@everywomanover29.com re one-on-one consulting